Jurassic Park, reality?

[Timenn]

Hmm, and all those arguments herefore then? They were quite optimistic

[Edric O]

Yes, that was my optimistic side. When I argue about something, I'm usually in the optimistic mood, because the pesimistic side is just like "Don't bother arguing, we're all doomed anyway".

[ordos45]

I tend to find the Pessimistic side more real in matters of Utopian Civilization. Peace is just an illusion, reality is war.

"Gee Gryphon, maybe you're right. Maybe we should all just start slaughtering the other animals! Yes, let's do it the evolutionary way! Let's see which animals can adapt to our bullets and which trees can adapt to our chainsaws! Hey, if they can't adapt, then they should die. It's evolution, right? Let's kill 'em all!"

Okay, assuming evolution is real for the sake of stopping flame war. Eventually some animal, hundreds to thousands to millions of years from now probably would adapt against bullets. But being humans, we would find a way to kill them.

"Acriku, of course material damages affect human life. But for the most part, they affect the lives of "poor" millionnaires who can't buy a new yacht. Oh, my heart's breaking for them! Violence is not the answer? Let me remind you that every single leap forward in human civilization was done through violence. Either by war or popular uprising or something similar. It's evil and it shouldn't be this way. But it is necessary. You will never impose a new world order without some violence."

Exactly, finally someone who notices that strife brings us further ahead than peace. Many things developed during times of war have also been good for society commercially. Bombs, first developed for wars, now used to blast away rocks and create tunnels. As we get better at killing each other, we get better at creating something even better.

About Humans being different but not superior to other animals. Yes, i too believe we are different but not superior. In fact on a one on one fight with almost an large predator a human would lose. But with human technology we can easily kill them. This makes us different than most animals, most animals don't invent better ways of killing things.

[Edric O]

As we get better at killing each other, we get better at creating something even better for killing each other! ;)

"You can't say there is no progress, for in every war they kill you in a different way" - this quote got the Discovery Channel stamp of approval

I tend to disagree with whoever I'm talking to, so Timenn's optimism was making me pesimistic. Now, because of your pesimism, I'm optimistic again. Thanks Ordos45. :) "Peace is just an illusion, reality is war"... True, but it doesn't have to be like this forever! We can change it. Not just you and me, of course. But if the group of people who truly care about mankind reaches critical mass, they will change the world.

The thing is, by the time animals adapt to bullets, we will be using something else. We are Borg. We adapt faster than anyone.

[gryphon]

Euh Ordos45, other animals do. Simple example. A wolfpack. One wolf alone can't kill or capture te pray. But together with that tactic they can. So they do invent other ways.

Monkey's use a variaty of branches to climb and for other untileties.

That's about the point I wanted to make Timenn. I just have the nasty [ some times nessecary ] methode of exadurating the examples so the main idea would be clear.

- mostly for Edric O but others might like it to :)

I had this subject in my classes a few years back. You know what my point of view was ? [ you might be supprised ]

Nature in itself is that combination of wonderfull and cruel things I mentioned in my previous posts. But somewhere along the line evolution [ as in the Darwin example ] made a sort of "more rationall" creature. Some where in that mess nature nakes of it there is a use for a creature who knows "more" about nature then others.

You get the point, humans are among the species who are evolving, so we're not there. Nor fot a long shot. But we are evolving to become a seperate class of animals. Totally different from the others. Or mayby even create a new class who whould tell. This by means of cloning of AI.

But the main thing. Evolution as Darwin mentioned is going on. Nu in a "spiritual" and "intellectual" way. And in a few [ yea right ;D ] years that rational creature [ this time for real and not because we as humans call ourselfs that ] will have to face the test of evolution. And the creature best adapted to that task will then survive.

Quit weird he ?

My professor thought so to. As a matter of fact, al the other student dids to.

Lucally creativety is a part of the judgment they give you to. :)

[Acriku]

Holy cow welcome to the Humans Suck Animals Rule convention.

Well being a pro-human, I think I have to say some things. :)

Acriku, of course material damages affect human life. But for the most part, they affect the lives of "poor" millionnaires who can't buy a new yacht

You are not thinking of the "little people" who do the jobs for the "poor" millionares. They might just lose thier job if the eco-terrorists terrorize their site to the point of delayed projects, and thus laying off. They then become poor and die of hunger. WHAT THEN?

If humans weren't breeding like rabbits, we wouldn't NEED to cause this much damage to the environment

So tell everyone to stop having sex and you yourself stop having sex. If you however don't do that then what is the use of complaining about it.

while the rich in the West waste 80% of the Earth's resources.

I don't know where you get your "inside" info, but a lot of "west" people are not rich. If you go to the US you will find a little section of rich people, then HUGE sections of people basically living to the bone (meaning they never waste anything and simply couldn't afford to).

Yes, we DO kill animals for fun and we DO have an animal-like behaviour, but what I'm saying is that we SHOULDN'T. We really should try to change our ways. And we can change them, but for the moment it seems we just don't want to.

Right now, it is impossible for everyone to meet your idealistical ways. If we do small little things now, they enlarge every generation until we finally become the loving tree-hugging people you want us to be. But right now it's literally impossible.

About Humans being different but not superior to other animals. Yes, i too believe we are different but not superior. In fact on a one on one fight with almost an large predator a human would lose. But with human technology we can easily kill them. This makes us different than most animals, most animals don't invent better ways of killing things.

This is why we humans are superior in an indirect way that our intelligence is actually superior. Sort of like because of our intelligence, we are superior, not because of ourselves.

True, but it doesn't have to be like this forever! We can change it. Not just you and me, of course. But if the group of people who truly care about mankind reaches critical mass, they will change the world.

You will not live to see humanity become this worldwide utopia, and most likely the ways you deem "good" will not do anything (e.g. terrorizing property). You are basically fighting against evil with evil.

So you see, we are human, and we can't change that. We don't know what is normal in nature except with what we have observed and gathered, and it simply isn't enough to where we can draw conclusions on what is normal or not. I would never kill anyone unless in a state of danger myself or another in a state of danger. The wanting to kill your own species with no reason or with greed puts their position below me and others to where I wouldn't hesitate to end the situation with any means necessary. I would kill to protect others, just as wolves kill to protect themselves. We are animals with intelligence, and that is that.

[ordos45]

Rich, I'm rich? Why didn't anyone tell me I was rich for living in the US!? I thought I was just middle class, living in similiar housing to that found around the world, except in Third World Countries.

Also this whole having sex to reproduce thing, I'm a virgin, I believe sexual intercourse is highly overrated.

Ah yes the everyday working people, the little people. The supposedly rich West people ::) who have endless jobs. I don't know about anyone else from the US but I live in a small town. 150 people applied for the job of a Middle School Janitor because they desperately needed a job to support their families!

(Umm, anyone remember our wooly mammoth friend?)

[TMA_1]

Acriku. Damn straight.lol

Idealism is the destruction of the mind. It is so closed minded because you dont see the reality at hand. It would be great to be apart of a society where we could all love eachother but people hate. There is no way to counteract that. People have a free will. We have to do what we need to do as individuals. We cant force people to love. We can only help ourselves. This world is an evil one. No good can make it a wonderful world. Once a single drop of evil is in it. It taints the whole lot of it. I know why this is because of me being a believer in the lord. Frankly though idealism destroys any kind of sane thinking.

[Lord J]

Dang, you guys have been busy :)

TMA: Thanks for letting me know about the scripture, although the insult was unwarranted. I don't understand why people think they have to call people names to get thier attention. I also should let you know I don't bash on the Bible, I bash on these people that call themselves Christians and never open it, or worse, lie in the name of God. One last thing to throw at you before I move on: I said, I don't *think* the Bible says much of anything about animals having souls. "Think." "THINK!"

Ahh well, anyway. The reason why mice were deemed the highest intellegent species on Earth in Hitchiker's Guide is because they were aliens who were conducting an expiriment. It's a science fiction thing, not literal ;)

Anyway, right on O45, "(Umm, anyone remember our wooly mammoth friend?)"

[Timenn]

You people may have read the King Arthur books. But there he meets some animals. And it is clear there that not all animals kill for fun. Or even kill. Like the geese. But ants make war all the time

There you can say that you have 2 different animals. The killing ones, and the non-killing ones. And I don't talk about predators and herbivors. Because you know the killing instinct of a rhino.

TMA_1, you say that idealism kills the mind for not seeing the reality? May I remind you of some persons who did better the world by this.

Like Adam Smith. He invented the free marktet thing. Ok, it went out of control. But more people are better off now then in these years thanks to this.

Or the people who invented democracy. May I remind in this the way USA thinks about freedom. All based on IDEALISTIC persons with their killed minds

Acriku, in this way you see that everything needs a beginning. So you can't say, we can't do that now, but you can't also say right now, in what I agree with you: we have to change that right NOW. But we must say: We must START to change right now.

[Anathema]

TMA, what is idealism? IMO it is strifing for a certain thing, optimisticly. When it prevents you from thinking "sane" it isn't just idealism, it is zealotism.

[Edric O]

TMA_1, I resent that! Idealism is what moves this world forward. I'm proud to be an idealist. I'm not sure how sane I am myself, but it is people like me who drive us onwards. Columbus was insane. Copernicus was insane. Galileo was insane. You get my point.

Acriku:

So tell everyone to stop having sex and you yourself stop having sex. If you however don't do that then what is the use of complaining about it.

Actually, I'm already doing that. And I never had sex, FYI. Nor do I plan to in the forseeable future.

You are not thinking of the "little people" who do the jobs for the "poor" millionares. They might just lose thier job if the eco-terrorists terrorize their site to the point of delayed projects, and thus laying off. They then become poor and die of hunger. WHAT THEN?

Colateral damage. Sad, but unavoidable.

I don't know where you get your "inside" info, but a lot of "west" people are not rich.

Well, if you compare our income with the average income per inhabitant of the planet, you will see that we are in fact rich. I don't know about you, but I'm not very confortable with going online knowing that there are people out there barely surviving on scraps of food.

Right now, it is impossible for everyone to meet your idealistical ways. If we do small little things now, they enlarge every generation until we finally become the loving tree-hugging people you want us to be. But right now it's literally impossible.

Of course. You can't change the world overnight. But we must plant the seeds of utopia for future generations to harvest.

You will not live to see humanity become this worldwide utopia

So what? I'll die happy, knowing that in a few hundred years my dream will come true. Think long-term, Acriku!

You are basically fighting against evil with evil.

Actually, I'm fighting against evil with BOTH good and evil. It's more effective this way.

[nemafakei]

Damn, why do I have to miss the best parts of the best debates... Mind you, I'd probably not have said much more than Edric.

This is, however, getting slightly heated...

I'd say continue with the mammoth thing, but there's only so much to say about it.

The only just way to look at things is to do so from a totally unbiased point of view. Forget the bias that says death is bad, the bias that says humans survival is necessary, and all things like that.

You will see that we are neither especially cruel, nor especially full-of-value.

[Anathema]

People consider it wrong to cause pain, even to animals, or kill them without reason. But when you eat a hamburger, do you eat it to survive? If so, you could just as well eat fruit or vegetables. Hamburgers require a meat industry that force lifestock to live a short, uncomfortable life only to be slaughtered and serve as hamburgers. We do not need hamburgers to survive- it's a luxury. It is a fact that people who eat meat think their personal luxury is more important then the well-being off lifestock. Now what kind of moral is that!

I am not a vegetarian myself (I have considered it for a long time, and I still am), but I admit that I am not an entirely moralistic person. But it is ridiculous to say that you can hold lifestock and force horrorible lives on them and that it is immoral to clone an animal!

[TMA_1]

if you actually study galileo's, copernicus's and many other men's works you will see that they werent idealists but realists. Big difference.

If you study history. You will find that idealism at the time seems great. It leads though to thoughts of pure equality. Pushing people from moving foreword. Not everything in this evil world is equal. I wish it was but it isnt. Some people need to do things greater than others. Some peopel need to be pushed down. Your ideals are socialistic and lead to tyrannical ideas. Though the constitution says that all people were created equal. America is actually very unequal with the free market that a person mentioned. It is probably the most utilitarian idea ever created. It pushes many to the bottom while keeping the rich to the top. the human mindset will never change. You have to keep trying with realism. Understanding that th ere is evil in our midst. That is what a sane person see's.

[Anathema]

So you really think idealism is a bad thing? Then how about the men who started the french revolution? Or the Americans who started the independence war?

[TMA_1]

The american revolution was a bad thing in many ways but it lead to some good I must admit. The french revolution was patterned after the american revolution. It was a bad thing not good.lol One of the bloodiest times in european history

[Acriku]

Earth, you have no idea what livestock think. They may or may not think like us humans, and just because we think that we would be unhappy, doesn't mean they would be or are. And how is killing plantlife any different than killing animals? Killing is killing. But then since we kill everyday, we have to not let ourselves be changing our whole lifestyle because we feel sorry for our food. It's funny how people say this or that is bad, but they do it all the time. If can't be that bad in your mind if you still do it.

A rabbit will savagely pull a carrot from it's ground, ripping it's roots off without mercy, tearing it's flesh and meat apart, chewing on it without a thought in the world about it. Evil rabbit I rebuke you!

[The_Sadukar]

TMA_1, an Idealist is basicly a person who has an idea of how the ideal world should be, the only sad thing is that there are many kind of "ideal worlds". Idealism dosen't cloud the mind, fanatism does.

[ordos45]

Realism, Idealism, Pessimism, and Fanaticism are the four edges of a four-edged sword. Each has its own sharpness against a particular target, but is nearly useless against others.

The first edge of realism, is for people who aren't being pessimistic or idealistic. People who are more or less unbiased. This can be used to wreck an idealists dreams, or turn sour a pessimists complaints.

The second edge is idealism. This is a benevolent edge, who is wielded best by the dreamers. This edge is the hopes and plans, but can also be wielded with deadly force, as an idealist might resort to force to enforce their dreams.

The third edge is pessimism. This is arguably the most persuasive of the edges. It says nothing can ever truly be accomplished and that everyone is wrong. Wielded by an expert this edge can make even the most high idealist faulter in self doubt.

The last and most dangerous of the edges is fanaticism. A fanatic wielding this blade can make even the mightiest powers fall to their needs. The fanatic cannot be swayed from his or her views, and their views are a weapon in themselves. With the sword of fanaticism anything can happen, buildings can be destroyed, Empires can rise and fall, people die even if they are innocent. No one else's views matter while a fanatic is wielding the edge of fanaticism.

These are the four edges of the sword of Belief. They apply to the topic in the discussions of idealism, pessimism, realism, and of course fanaticism.

One cannot stop a fanatic without becoming one.

[The_Sadukar]

whoo, that was wery symbolic

[Edric O]

TMA, the difference between me and you is that I do not bow to the status quo. I don't look at the inequality and the poverty and the suffering and give up, like you do. I know I'll never live to see utopia, but I'll die trying. And maybe my attempts will make a difference.

Am I a socialist? Yes, and proud to be one! Capitalism is pathetic and evil. It has served its purpose in history, but now it's time to move on.

Earthnuker, the problem is we NEED to kill to survive. Plants are alive too. And killing a plant makes you no better than someone who kills an animal. That's why I'm not a vegetarian.

And how do you know livestock are living horrible lives? I think it's better to have all the food they want and never have a care in the world, than to be hunted in the wild.

[Timenn]

That's a good one Ordos45 :)

But TMA_1, you are really pretending that the world never has been bettered. May I tell you that it was because of the first French revolution that all peoples got the idea of democracy. No wonder when after 33 years all countries in Europe take again democracy, (or the way in Netherlands for example, where the royal family is almost powerless, compared to the government (and even now I think they really should shut up and leave, but that's another thing)

And this was achieved by idealists. And now you as consevatist, who are even more dangerous then fanatics, points on the things they did wrong, and you say nothing was improved. I wonder if you really know what is improved...

Oh yes, Earthnuker and Acriku, I recently read an article about plants having feelings...

[TMA_1]

lol first of all. There has never been a real democacy to exist. A true democracy is the rule of the mob. Or the people. Even in ancient greece during they're "democracy" certain people couldnt vote. That wasnt even a true democracy. Most people live under republic systems. Second of all. Who says the republic system works well? I havent seen much evidence of it. Socialism sounds great but it nver works. It makes absolutes that put all people down. Evil is not just in bad things. but in people trying to do good, and altogether actually making things much worse. If you actually studied socialism you will see they miss one thing. the human mindset. People are naturally bigoted and evil. There can be no equality. So what does a government do? It forces things to be grey. it forces its people to be equal. That creates a status quoe that you edric yourself said you were against.

[Acriku]

I agree with ya Edric on your last paragraph, basically what I said more or less.

Good symbolism and explanations Ordos, I wonder if the base of it all, the handle of the 4-edged sword, that delivers the blow is humanity itself?

Timenn, if you are talking about chemical reactions towards certain things that may be perceived as feelings, then I would agree, but other than that plants aren't capable of even the most basic feelings if my biology class serves me right. But in that I am talking about trees, weeds, grass, that stuff. I don't know enough about sea-life and those little-known plants throughout the world.

Also, we created the classification of plants, animals, bacteriae, etc, and it is never perfect so things can happen that according to our classification are not "normal".