Do ghola's have souls?

[TMA_1]

Well you all know about gholas. This topic was spurred from spock being reenergized. I am asking this. The tleilaxu are very spiritual. Do they believe the soul is retransplanted in the body. that it is needed for reanimation? what do you guys think?

[Mahdi]

Good question.

[Timenn]

I don't believe actually in souls, as it are objects. But more as consicinous. And I think it can be that the same consicinous is used more lifes then one. Reincarnation, sort of

[Vanguard3000]

Before you try and find that out, one must determine what is meant by the term "soul". What is a soul? Is it simple conciousness, or awareness of existance? Cogito ergo sum, and all that? Or is it more than that? Can one say "you have no soul!" simply because the target has died and been regrown by artificial means?

Overall, I would have to say that most likely, gholas would have "souls", because they are consious beings. But, I follow a similar train of thought as Timenn.

[TMA_1]

A soul is something meta-physical in my opinion. Many religions believe the same. That it is with us and who we are. The tleilaxu believe in a religion from what it seems that they probably have the same idea as I am getting at. so do they have souls?

[Mahdi]

Vangaurd, you are teh first person I ahve ever heard use Descartes theory the way he meant it to be used. Proof of the existence of the human soul. Good for you.

[TMA_1]

There is no proof. we just guess by saying "I think therefore I am." That is very circular. It isnt a matter of proof but of faith. still I agree that there should be some reason involved as you said.

[Mahdi]

There is no proof. we just guess by saying "I think therefore I am." That is very circular. It isnt a matter of proof but of faith. still I agree that there should be some reason involved as you said.

TMA, I'm not saying that it is proof or it isn't. I'm congratulating Vangaurd for being the first person I've ever heard to use Descartes theories the way they were meant to be.

[Tyekanik]

I would have to agree with the previous posts. Ghola's would have souls. Consciousness is beyond the flesh, so regardless of whether or not the same flesh has been used previously, does not mean that the 'copies' would not have a 'soul'.

[exatreide]

in my opinion they dont. if they do it would be a exact copy of there previes living side.

[TMA_1]

Not so Ex. The brain is the gateway to the soul. If you change aspects of the brain, the soul cant communicate the same way it could before.

P.S. Ahh I gotcha mahdi. sorry about that.

[nemafakei]

Vanguard, you took the words right out of my mouth, and made them more intelligible.

Assuming normal humans have this metaphysical attatchment, gholas should have them too:

". If you change aspects of the brain, the soul cant communicate the same way it could before."

But the soul is still there... just it expresses itself differently.

Moreover, cloning Mother Theresa would produce someone with the same abilitiesas her, but different attitudes, due to a rather different upbringing (ie by the Tleilaxu). Only an almost identical upbringing would create someone with the same manner.

[TMA_1]

thats exactly what I meant with what you quoted.lol but I agree completely with you about the example.

[vidiware]

well my opinion is that the gholas are controled by electrisity (like us... i dont think a ghola cna have feelings (not pain but humen like, all animals can feel pain (most of them)) or so, if it can it has a soul)

[Timenn]

Yes, the famous nature nurture discussion, about what you get from genetic heritage and education.

But now we include also a soul. As soul is consicinous, consicinous controls the brain, but so does instinct (what is the same as intuition) and the brain controls the body.

If you want to brainwash someone, you do that by letting that person believe the right things, experience you can call it.

But the point of this is that this brainwashed person can be changed in the same lifetime. And that makes it vulnerable.

Tleilaxu Ghola's aren't like that. So you must go a level up. To the controllers of the mind. Instinct and Consicinous. SO what do you change when you create a ghola. Instinct. An Instinct doesn't ask itselfs what it's doing. Therefore is the Consicinous. And Instinct does only change in evolution. If you control that evolution, you control the Instinct. And so you control the brain and ghola.

But when you have no consicinous, you are a machine.

A machine can do anything you ask, but has a limit of 'thinking' To expand it's learning algoritms and knowledge you need consicinous. Ghola's have that. But too less. They can't win from the Instinct.

This makes so, the Ghola a controlled biologic thinking machine. Yes, the Butlerian Jihad, who are crossing it's rules? Almost the Tleilaxu.

This is my view. I can have made wrong statements. But I'm myself thinking about this.

[ordos45]

Okay Timenn I can see where you are going, as it frequently mentions that the Tleilaxu can program the gholas, as you would program your computer. By programming them to do things they bypass the consciousness (in my opinion at least). So I think that sometimes gholas do have souls and other times they do not.

On the times where I believe they do: This is when the original memories are recovered and no extra programming is added by the Tlielaxu. It is the memories, the morals, and the personality that possibly compose the soul itself, our essence. But many times I feel that essence is lost in the process of growing the ghola.

The other times: These are the times when they just create mindless soldiers. When they train the ghola only to fight, kill, and serve their masters. In this event they may have a soul still, but it is corrupted by the Tlielaxu's vile influences.

[Caid Ivik]

In I think Dune Messiah waws a sentence: "He is ghola, not a clone!" Main difference between ghola and clone is, that clone is just a replica of source's body, but with new soul, like every new-born child. Ghola is more like resurrected person with same soul as it's predicessor. As about clone, mind and memory is totaly new, because these are parts of physical body, not spiritual part. But no one can't say what is spiritual or physical.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

but there are no tleilaxu women, all tleilaxu are grown from axlotl tank, just as the ghola, so if not gholas have a soul then an ordinary tleilaxu won't have one either...

[Timenn]

Well, ghola's are made in a different then Tleilaxu people.

And the axotl tanks ARE the Tleilaxu women

[TMA_1]

ressurection is when a soul recieves a new body. Clones are bodies that are duplicates of an original. taken from usually a few cells. Many animals do this for procreation. granted they are "primitive". Ghola's are entire bodies that are reanimated. regrown as the same person so to speak.

[nemafakei]

"ressurection is when a soul recieves a new body"

Surely you mean reincarnation? Resurrection is merely bringing a body back to life.

[TMA_1]

no that is resuscitation. Ressurection is when a body is made new. reincarnation is when a soul is placed in a new human body. Transmigration is when a soul is placed in any sort of new body.

With the ressurection of christ. He was given a new body. That is an example.

Most eastern religions believe in reincarnation or transmigration of souls.

[Tyekanik]

I have seen some discussion on ghola vs clone but have yet to see anyone mention that one of the fundamental differences between a ghola and a clone is that a ghola is a being grown from the cells of a dead body. A clone is created from the cells of a still living being. That the original is dead is one of the most interesting aspects of a ghola. The ghola, when reawakened, will remember his / her own death (or in Duncan's case; deaths). Imagine the psychological impact of remembering your own death.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

How is that possible since the thoughts of one, is not stored in a single cell. Most of us have the brain for that purpose

[TMA_1]

actually cloning can come from dead cells. Then the DNA is transfered to living cells.