ATR + Feds Vs. Hark = Nav Needs Help

[Navaros]

Whenver I have what would have been a great defense against Ordos conisting of Minos and Feds, it gets pulverized by Hark players. The problem is that good Hark players will take the time out to run over all my Feds before continuing to fire upon my Minos. They just charge in a whole load of vehicles and run over my Feds, and once that happens my Minos are toast. Of course when I have the Guild as well it's not a problem, but I need my Feds to not be run over before I have enough stuff to start pumping out Guild.

Can any elite players tell me how to make sure my Feds don't get run over by Hark while they are defending Minos? I know I could run them away from the battle, but if I don't have keep them near my Minos then my Minos will die.

[Taqwa11]

I don't consider myself an "elite" player, Nav, but try putting a few sandbikes right in front of your kindjal. The sandbikes make a very nice barrier for the minos and kindjal to fire from behind.

[Acriku]

Barriers are one of the most simplest and basic strategies online, it's obvious to use them and sometimes required. And I thought everyone knew that strat...

[Navaros]

Barriers is a great strat early on, but later in the game when he is mass producing Assault Tanks, building bikes it not as appealing of an option as building Minos. You could be right though. If an elite player could comment, that would be most helpful.

[Elite47]

Ok nav. Like they said: BUILD BARRIERS! bikes ARE VERY useful.You can make lots of minos sure, but make lots of bikes and mongs too. mix your feds in with the bikes and infantry and they cant just run them over.

oh yeah INFANTRY ROCK!

or if youre dumb you will only build minos and feds. If youre stupid enough to do only that than god save your soul and stick the feds inbetween your minos.

[Frodo_I]

My answer is the same as for your other defense post. Put the fed's on "defense" status so they shoot first. Also keep the fed's right next to or behind your minos

Hark missle tanks can out shoot your minos, but if they start doing that they just use the feds on the missle tanks and then move them back. Most GOOD hark players don't use many missle tanks cause they know their a waste of money, so i wouldn't worry too much about that

I think you should worry more about hark players "force firing" inkvines at spaces in front of your minos and killing mass feds all at once. Thats why i said put the fed's behind the minos

Anyways this is all redundant cause your not going to think anything anyone says will work anyways so, bah

[GhostHunter]

Heres a idea.........Heck if hes charging your lines and taking enough time to run over all your feyds and then charging your minos heres a good idea.......Hit'em with enough fire power when hes going after the feyds so he cant do diddaly sh*t to your minos. And have kindjal in front/back of minos, heck its only a idea though ;D......Until next post, Vilgent.

[SurlyPIG]

Solution: Mix in bikes with your infantry. Take the time to scatter in the bikes so that the hark can't just charge in there and squash all your infantry.

If he goes for mass assault tanks, then screw the minos, get some mongoose! Atreides players always seem to underestimate the usefulness of this little bugger. The mongoose easily outranges and outpowers the assault tank, making it an assault killing machine.

This is the game. You come up with a strategy (mixed bike barrier) and your opponent counters (assault tanks). You make your own counter (mongoose) until you can give yourself a distinct advantage (NIABs from what I'm reading).

Sometimes, I would use a tactically flawed strategy simply because I know how my opponent will counter it, giving me the advantage of prediction. For example, I go for an early worm rush. Obviously, my opponent will try to stop me otherwise I'll kill all his harvs. I then go on defense. I camp. Mortars, a load of chems and a few dusts are all I need to back my kobra. If he attacks, my ready-deployed kobra and mortars will have the advantage over any he may use. Since he's attacking me, once my economy gets going I'll be able to get my new units to the battle quicker than he can.

[Navaros]

There are a few reasons why I don't like Bikes and Infantry against Hark in the late game:

1. Inkvines. A few Inkvines can kill $10 000 worth of infantry in a matter of seconds. (And yes I know "use Feds to kill the Inkvines etc." but anyone who is good knows that: 1. That is not always possilbe and 2. You will not always see the Inkvines right away in QM, especially due to Fog of War).

2. Bikes and Infantry will almost always *chase* the Hark units. Instead of staying near my Minos in a strong formation, they begin to charge right into the Hark army even though I didn't tell them to. This is a *huge* problem. By the time I am able to move them back to my Minos, they are mostly already dead. By the time my Minos catch up to them if I move my Minos to where they chased the Hark units without my permission, they are likewise mostly already dead. It's a No-Win sitauation.

For these two huge reasons, I think bikes and Inf suck against Hark.

[Taqwa11]

Well, Nav, since you won't really listen to the suggestion about sandbikes, try this: DON'T BUILD ANY FEDS. Build some Fremen warriors to counter enemy feds if the enemy has Fremen as a subhouse, but concentrate very heavily on sard elites. If there is one house I love to play against, it is Hark--unless Ace or another master is playing as Hark. One of the big reasons is Sard Elites. When I play against Hark, I only build Fedaykin if it is very late game, I've got the upper hand, and I want another attack option. Sard Elites mixed in with minos, with a few kindjal backing them up or on infantry rock nearby, will kill anything Hark except Inkvines with ease. To kill the Inkvines, give your sard elites a number so they can move out independently from their mino companions and kill the Inkvines. Otherwise, just let them sit there with the minos, and pity the fool who tries to trample that group. Another thing: you complain too much. I think you must duck a lot of people to get your great QM ranking, because I've only heard one other "top" player complain so much about not being able to counter the enemy. You remind me so much of DukeLeeto because both of you have complained so much about EVERY LITTLE THING in this game. Ace is absolutely right--and he knows as well as anyone: the game is all about counters. I've never been ranked in the top 50 in QM past the first several days of the month, but apparently I know as much or more about the game than you do, even if I don't play it as often or as well as the "elite" players. But if you don't want to take my advice, take it from Ace or another top player, and surprise, surprise, the suggestions will be the same.

[Taqwa11]

By the way, Nav, the only thing separating me from the so-called "elite" players is the CONSISTENCY that comes with EXPERIENCE. I just CAN'T play PC games as much as most of you. I am old enough to be the father of most of you, and I have three kids, a wife, and a very time-consuming job. The point is, I KNOW WHAT WORKS. I know what has defeated me, and I remember it all very well. I know how to defeat any strategy in Emperor that I've ever been beaten by, but I just can't always put that "perfect" game together. I make build order mistakes. My micro-management doesn't always measure up to the "elite" players' standards. I sometimes counter just a step too late. I get frustrated because I can't always implement all the great strats I know, and I don't like "talking the talk" when I can't always "walk the walk." I am not the master of counters that Ace is, but I'm sure Ace himself would admit that my advice is usually sound. So take it or leave it, Nav. But please, stop bitching and asking for advice only to turn around and make excuses about why the advice just won't work.

[CypressX15]

If your soul purpose is just to protect your Fed's, then do the barrier, but put the sandbikes off gaurd, which yes, makes them totally usseless other than taking hits, but they won't run away..and if you feel like it, you could even keep them on a number, so as soon as the enemy is in range of the sandbikes, all you have to do is select them and hit the "G" button again, then the bulets fly.

[GhostHunter]

No what Nav.......Since you cant play Atr hes a idea.....Well you also cant play any other forces and you'll do just as bad in them......So QUIT!!!!! Do us all a favor ( Including Canada ;D ) And go move to some FARRRRR away place and never talk to ANY of us again.That would do us a HUGE favor.Until next post,Vilgent.

[undsputed]

I am big on the idea of trying different houses. I think you have to be able to do that to attain a certain level of understanding. At the same time, you can see how other people play your favorite house...very helpful.

There are several well known players posting here, Nav, make sure you recognize when people are helping you. Taqwa, Ace, definitely Elite from what I've seen, and I believe Vilgent have all been around for a long time...longer than you. Give people a chance and try their advise before shooting it down.

[GhostHunter]

I am big on the idea of trying different houses. I think you have to be able to do that to attain a certain level of understanding. At the same time, you can see how other people play your favorite house...very helpful.

There are several well known players posting here, Nav, make sure you recognize when people are helping you. Taqwa, Ace, definitely Elite from what I've seen, and I believe Vilgent have all been around for a long time...longer than you. Give people a chance and try their advise before shooting it down.

Thank you, you make a good piont. And yes I have been around for a LONG time, I think it was about a week ( Have connections ;D ) before the official U.S.A release, for future reference ;). Until next post, Vilgent.

[SurlyPIG]

Yes taqwa is right. If you have trouble vs hark maybe you should switch from fremen to sards. These guys kick hark ass and can rough up ordos players pretty well too. In my hark vs hark games last month (I won them all) I used nothing but inf, saws and sards - the sards being the reason I won. I know its not your particular style, but maybe you should focus more on the cheaper, faster-moving, faster-building units like sards, bikes and infantry as opposed to kindjal and minos. I remember d3k often played this way and I know dawg did as well. You will of course need minos but feds are useless vs someone who makes mass saws. The only useful purpose feds serve against hark is killing inkvines.

So there you go: here's your balance. A hark player rushes you with mass #s of saws? Use sards, bikes and infantry to stop the saws from running over everything and killing your minos. I know what you'll say and yes, you opponent will use inkvines. But by the time he realizes he cant run over you (pardon the pun) with saws, you'll probably be well on your way to getting NIABs which are the ultimate killer of inkvines. Plus, you'll be able to attack his base and spice instantly.

This is how atreides work. They dont have early game strengths but they just try and survive until they can get a leg up on their opponents ie me.

[Devastator_Mech]

Its pretty easy, but you'll need some micromanagements. First turn off the Fremen's guard mode, put them beside or behind the mino's.

When the enemy come and is shooting your mino's, you rush all the Feds and attack from beside, when they're trying to over-run your Feds, you run away and they become cloaked autmatically, when they start shooting your mino's again, you do this again.

The key is, make your mino cover your Feds instead of the other way around. Feds are much more effective against vehicle than a mino. The minos are actally extremely effective against infantries, use that ability to your advantage and feds are actually less effective against infantries.

And use the stealth ability to your best advantage.