Star Wars: A simplified Dune? (please read and edit)

[Mahdi]

Edited to add another section on Dune/TatooineAfter you guys have edited it/critiqued it and I've gotten a chance to change it a little while, I'll see if Gob will post the final version in the article section. It isn't as good as the old "star wars speech" but it's better than nothing.Warning: This article contains spoilers for both Dune and the original Star Wars trilogy. "If at any time during this production you are reminded of Star Wars, remember that Dune was first published in 1965 - and count how many years it took Lucas to file off the serial numbers."-Paul, Science Fiction WeeklyStar Wars: One of the top grossing movies of all time, one of the biggest money-making franchises ever, and one of the most famous pieces of science fictione ver to hit the big screen. Dune: the best selling sceince-fiction novel ever. Winner of the Hugo and Nebula awards. A revolutionary novel. Considered to be one of the greatest accomplishments of the human imagination. The father of a multi-million dollar franchise. However, since the day the first Star Wars movie was released to the public (in fact, before it was even released to the general public) there ahve been debates and discussions over whether or not Star Wars is in fact an original piece of sci-fi, or jsut a thinly disguised carbon copy of Dune. This paper is going to examine all of the simularities between the two in the hopes of proving that Dune was, in fact, the basis of Star Wars. In order to do this this paper will examine quotes from science fiction authorities and from people involved in both Dune and Star Wars, simularities between both works, and a comparison of the characters in each.Characters are always a major part of any work, whether it be fiction or non-fiction. In both Dune and Star Wars there are striking simularities between the characters in both. To begin, I will lay out which character relates to which:Luke Skywalker = Paul Maud'dib AtreidesHan Solo = Duncan Idaho/StilgarObi-wan Kenobi = Gurney Halleck/StilgarOwen = Duke Leto AtreidesLeia = Chani/Irulan/AliaDarth Vader = Baron Vladimer HarkonnenEmperor Palpatine = Emperor Shaddam CorrinoTuskan Raiders/Jedi = FremenStorm troopers = SardaukarJedi = Bene GesseritLuke Skywalker and Paul Atreides: Two very simular characters, two different works of sci-fi. Luke lives on a Desert planet with two moons. Paul lives on a desert planet with two moons. Lukes adopted parents die on a desert planet. Pauls father dies on a desert planet. Luke begins to discover his powers on this planet. Paul begins to discover his powers on this planet. Both are the sons of powerful, important men. Both are biologically linked to the "bad guy" of there respective series's. Both are thought to be the chosen ones. Both share very similar powers. Both are great pilots. Both fight with "swords". Both fall in love with a mystery girl they do not know before they meet her. Both rebel against the current rulers of the universe. Both win. Han Solo and Duncan Idaho/Stilgar: Duncan and Han are both the good "bad boys" of their respected series's. Both are best friends to Luke and Paul. Both are great pilots. Both are ladies men. Both look similar. Han Solo helps teach Luke how to survive in the big bad universe run by the emperor. Stilgar helps teach Paul how to survive in the big bad planet run by the Baron. All three are people Luke and Paul look up to. Obi-wan Kenobi and Gurney Halleck/Stilgar: While having little screen time in Star Wars, Obi-wan correlates to two characters in dune. Gurney Halleck is Paul's mentor, Obi-wan is Lukes. Obi-wan is Lukes first teacher, Gurney and Stilgar are Pauls. Obi-wan, although dead, continues to help/teach/advise Luke throughout the movies. Gurney, returns to do the same with Paul after he learns that Paul is still alive. Stilgar becomes Paul's teacher after he flee's to the Desert. Both Obi-wan and Stilgar save there young charges int he desert before taking them under there charge. All three are expert fighters. All three will do anything for their young charges, including die.Owen and Duke Leto Atreides: Both are the "fathers" of the main characters. Both are very much in love with their wives. Both are very protective of there children. Both only have one son as a child. Both are killed by the enemy early on in there respective works. Leia and Chani/Irulan/Alia: Leia and Chani are both strong women characters who are great fighters and can hold there own against any other character in there respective works. All three are related to the main characters of their stories, all three in some romantic way. Two of them are Princess's, and the third is the Daughter of the most powerful Fremen and niece to the second most powerful (daughter of Liet, niece to Stilgar). Leia and Alia are both sisters of the hero's. Both fall in love with the good "bad boys" of their series (Leia with Han, Alia with Duncan). Both have similar sounding names. Both are just about (and possibly more) powerful than there chosen one brothers. Both are captured by there father/grandfather and tortured by him. Darth Vader and Baron Vladimer Harkonnen: Both are the "big baddies" of there universes. One is the father and the other is the grandfather of the hero of both works. Both "capture" and torture one of the important female leads in both works (Harkonnen captures and torures Alia, Vader captures and tortres Leia). Both of the captured women are the sisters of the main character, and are the daughter/granddaughter of the villians who capture them. Both end up dying in the end. Both are servants of a great and powerful Emperor. Emperor Palpatine and Emperor Corrino: Both are Emperors and bad guys in there respective universes. Both rose to power through manipulation and murder. Both try and fail to kill the hero of there works. Both have relatives of the hero as there followers. Both end up losing to the "chosen one". Both of there empires fall.Tuskan Raiders/Jedi and Fremen: Both are Desert Dwellers. Both are consciousless beings who have no qualms about killing people who stumble into there territories. Both try to kill the main hero (although in Dune they eventually adopt him). Both wear smilar clothing. The Fremen and Jedi also have quite a bit in common. they are both the greatest fighters in there respective empire. They are both oppressed societies with the ruiling class enacting pograms of genocide. From both cultures come the "chosen one" who defeats the corrupt empire. Both are ancient societies with great importance put on philosophical matters.Storm Troopers and Sarduakar: Both are the Emperors soldiers. Both are supposed to be elite. Both are the main tool of the bad guys in the books. Both meet a superior force lead by the hero of the series. both are responsible for the deaths of the heroes parents. Jedi and Bene Gesserit: Both are ancient societies which exist only to serve mankind. Both are expert fighters. Both are incredibly selective when it comes to there members. Both have the ability to detect truth. Both have the abilities to control minds. Both give the training which results int he chosen one they are both searching for.Simularities in weapons/technologies:Lightsaber and Crysknife: In both Dune and Star Wars there exists and ancient and semi-mystical weapon wielded by the hero and others of his people that only a select few are aloud to bear. In Dune that weapon is the Crysknife, which only Fremen can have. In Star Wars it is the Lightsaber, which only the Jedi can have. Both are not just weapons but symbols of status. Both are incredibly effective weapons, the sharpest in there respective universes. Shields: Both universes have shields. In both universe these shields have major flaws: In Dune, a slow moving object can pass through them. In Star Wars, a relatively small object (to the size of the shield) can pass through the shield. The force:Using the force, you can control peoples minds by telling them what to do, think, and say. This same power is possible in Dune. It is called the voice. Using the force, some people can tell whether or not someone is lying. This power exists in Dune. It is called truth-sense. Using the force, some few people are able to see the future, and all Jedi's are able to have glimpses of it. In Dune, some few people have prescience (the ability to see the future) and all fremen have glimpses of the future. Using the force, some people can read minds to an extent. In Dune, Alia can implant messages in peoples minds and Paul, as he can see the past, present, and future can also read minds to an extent. the Bene Gesserit cacn also tell what people are thinking through great training in observation. With the force, the use of the Force, especially the darkside, clouds the future. In Dune, the use of prescience slouds the future. Using the force, you can sense other people who also have in. In Dune, people with prescience can sense others with it.Simularities in plots:Both have the same basic plot. A young boy is/goes on a desert planet. The boy see's a vision of a girl and falls in love with her. His father is killed. He is nearly killed. He is nearly killed again by desert dwellers. He is saved. The man who saved him becomes his teacher and teaches him the way of his people. The boy meets the girl. The boy discovers his powers and saves his people. The boy kills/is responsible for the death of his father/grandfather, who is the big baddie. The evil, corrupt empire he is fighting against falls.Dune and Tatooine: Both are desert planets. Both have two moons. Both are the homes of the hero and his teacher. Both are under the control of the big bad guy. The fathers of the hero's both die on these worlds. Dune has sandworms. A part of Tatooine called "The Dune Sea" has a creature which resembles sandworms. Multiple other simularities exist in the plot/characters/technologies, but these are the major ones. When looking at each point alone, it seems easy to dismiss the possibility that Star Wars is derived from Dune, but taken all together there seems to be a very strong arguement.Until now this paper has focused entirly on what actaully made it to the big screen and in the novels. This paper is not going to go in depth into what did not make it into the final version of Star Wars, however it will state that the original script for Star Wars was such a flagrant copy of dune taht the studio it was pitched to turned it down out of fear that they would face legal action for palgerism and assigned another writer to help change the script until it was far enough away from Duen that they thought they could escape legal action. Ironically, there is an as yet unsubtantiated rumour that legal action was planned by Frank Herbert and David Lynch which never occured to to Frank Herberts illness which resulted in his death.In the world of sci-fi, the idea that Star Wars is a copy of Dune is not an uncommon one. So far this paper has just listed one persons opinion and comparisons relating to this matter. However, this section will contain quotes from people in the sci-fi buisness addressing the issue of Dune/Star Wars (such as the quote at the top of this article)."David [Lynch] had trouble with the fact that Star Wars used up so much of Dune. We found sixteen points of identity between my novel and Star Wars. That is not to say this was other than coincidence, even though we figured the odds against coincidence and produced a number larger than the number of stars in the universe."-Frank Herbert, author of Dune"I guess I would think that George Lucas would acknowlege Herbert's contribution to the epic quality of the genre. And while Star Wars has had more commercial success and more broad-based exposure than Dune, I believe anyone who would study both Star Wars and Dune would have to acknowledge the small debt that Star Wars owes to Dune."-John Harrison, director of Frank Herberts Dune"Of course, complicating the question, can there be any doubt that the FIRST movie verson of DUNE was actually STAR WARS?..."These are not the droids you want" He uses The Voice on them! And there's a sandworm skeleton in the background! To say nothing of "The Sand People."" -Gardner Dozois, editor of Asimov's science fiction "It really was, because Lucas realized you couldn't really make a movie of Dune" -Rick Austin, Vic-President of on-air for the Sci-Fi Channel (intersting side note: Austin is a major Star Wars fan, going to such lengths as to dress up as Darth Vader for the opening of The Empire Stricks Back)"Star Wars was heavily influenced by Dune."-Kevin J. Anderson, author of numerous Dune and Star Wars novels"Isn't it obvious that some things in Star Wars were derived from Dune?"-Dr. Willis E. McNelly, author of the Dune EncyclopediaAfter reading over all the simularities between the characters, plots, technologies/weapons, the reason why the first Star Wars script was rejected, and the opinions of some influential people in the sci-fi buisness, this author believes that Star Wars is in fact derived from Dune. However, I encourage you to read both the Dune chronicals and then watch the Star Wars trilogy before coming to your own descision over this matter. For many of the things that truly give this impression can only be seen by doing this. Anyone of the "evidences" presented in this article can be disputed standing alone. However, together, they put up a very convincing arguement.Mahdi

[Alexander_Ordos]

Well, in fact, after my father saw SW II he said, when the movie finished, that it's the way too close to Dune so this film is crap. In my opinion Star Wars universe is a Dune like universe BUT it uses machines so it makes the two universes devide from each other. But there'r many places badly familiar to Duniverse so it quickly arises suspicion.

Let's take the simple part. The main and most politicly important planet in SW universe is Karuskent - a huge city planet with a large council made of other planet representatives. DAMN Kaitan - a huge city planet with a council made of the representatives of the other planets. Only difference comes in names - SenateLandsraad, Emperor Supreme Cancler and that's just the tiny bit of the magnificant Sci Fi universes!

Offcourse SW wins in it's common usage of machines and A.I. Droids and starships made about 45% of the fantasy that makes SW unique. On the counter part, Dune uses less atention to interstellar ships and battles, while focusing on characters, religion, feelings and politics. Dune has lots of cultures with their history, present and future. SW doesn't even have a history of the such important organisation The Order of the Jedi.

There're many other facts but the final opinion is that the Dune is MUCH more detalaised...

Ordos out...

[Gunseng_Harkonnen]

I never consider SW and Dune in this way. Just saw Jabba similar to Vladimir Harkonnen and this impression was more expressive when I read House Atreides. I am talking about moment when Jabba wanted throw Luke to this sand monster and moment when Vladimir throw woman that saved Duncan to sandworm. But a lot of things could be similar.

I agree in whole thing with Alexander, although Star Wars have history, maybe not as far as Dune universe but the history of Sith (Krath Organisation, first Jedi, how Sith became Sith) is quite far.

And, of course, Bultherian Jihad made Dune less technological. The main thing that makes Dune different is that in SW are a lot of another races and in Dune are humans.

And Thuwir Hawat is similar to Yoda if we assume that Luke Skywalker is similar to Paul: he was teacher of him.

[lost_child]

I think the sarlac that lives in the pit of carcoon in starwars is kind of like the great sand worms in dune.

[Mahdi]

I think I mentioned that in the Dune/Tatooince section, unless I'm think of somethign different. Do you mean the thing Jabba tries to feed Luke and Han to before Leia kills him?

[Vanguard3000]

Before I start, I'll just correct something: Tatooine has two suns, not two moons.

Anyway, I admit there are many similarities between Dune and Star Wars. Mr. Lucas himself admitted to using it as his inspiration, particularily for the tatooing bits.

However, I think some of these similarities can be chalked up to coincidence or people trying too hard to find similarities. In the late 1950's and early 1960's, people thought Batman was gay for the simple reason that he lived with two other men in a large mansion (that's why the character of "Aunt" Harriet was introduced in the 60's TV series). Also, a lot of people wanted to boycott Batman because they thought they saw demonic images in Batman's cape, etc. What I'm trying to say here is that is someone tries hard enough to find something, they'll find it, whether it's there or not. I use your Owen/Leto comparison as an example. I really see no similarities between these two, except for the fact that they were both killed by the bad guys.

I used to have a website bookmarked called "Why Star Wars is a rip-off of Dune", and it had things like "Lando and Leto both have and L for first letter, and O for last letter", "Both have the Spice as drug of choice (Dune-melange, SW-Glitterstim)", etc. It was pretty neat, but I've unfortunately lost the link.

[ordos45]

Burseg/Royal Guards: The Burseg is the elite of the Sardaukar, and at least one is usually protecting the Emperor. The Royal Guards are culled from the most elite of stormtrooper squadrons and trained in several more deadly martial arts, and at least one is always with the Emperor.

Twins connection: Oh yes, Ghani and Leto are born by Chani (who has already been shown to be the Leia like figure). Jacen and Jaina are born to Leia in the SW books. Amazing, these two characters who are matched together as Leia being a rip off of Chani ends up ripping off birth. Leia and Chani both had fraternal twins. Both also had three children. Leia had Jacen, Jaina, and Anakin (named after her father. Chani had (I think) Leto, Leto, and Ghani.

X-Wing/Sandworm: The X-Wing is flown by Luke to blow up the first death star. The sandworm is ridden by Paul in the attack on the Emperor's Palace.

Final Confrontation Scene: Luke's encounter with the Emperor ends in a battle with Luke fighting a relative (his father, who dies from the battle wounds). Paul's confrontation with the Emperor involves him fighting and killing a relative (his cousin). After both, the respective Empire's more or less fall and change.

Honored Matres/Sith: Someone already compared the Jedi with the Bene Gesserit. The Sith are the evil counterpart of the Jedi and use evil methods. The Honored Matres are the evil counterpart for the Bene Gesserit in Heretics and Chapterhouse, they use banned and illegal evil methods. Both the Bene Gesserit and Jedi eventually overcame their "dark sides" in the end.

Glowglobes: Globes that float and give off light. Why are they present in both universes?

Hyperspace/Foldspace: Hyperspace is what the SW people jump to when they need to go somewhere quick. Foldspace is where the Dune Universe ships jump into and to get somewhere quick. Both foldspace and hyperspace are mentioned in at least a few occasions as a seperate dimension from our own, one which allows ships to go places far faster.

[quoudam72]

The two could be compared to one another in many different ways being that they both borrow heavily from Eastern cultures (myth, religion and philosophy). I agree that George Lucas may have borrowed from Frank Herbert but because the two have the same influences to a certain degree it is really diffcult to say. Both writings will be forever compared because of their simulair stories and themes and also 'fictional' cultures.

[Colonel_Worf]

Some of things in the article is stretching it a bit, but I do see some of the similarities, nonetheless.

[vidiware]

You have a point here!

Maby the last one (George) borrowed something from the Dune ideas.

[Gunseng_Harkonnen]

Dune is more realistic than Star Wars. And right, they inculde religions, but thinks that Dune Arabic and Star Wars some tibetan kind, becouse of meditation and brain control.

[zispin]

Admittedly there are some similarities, but alot of what you're saying is complete rubbish!

I have a much greater respect for the work's of Frank Herbert than I do of George Lucas, but still...

The thing about comparing the X-Wing to the Sandworm - grasping at straws just alittle?!

And having the hero's family killed by the big baddie is one of the biggest cliches in film!

I think George Lucas used Dune as inspiration, but alot of the ideas are mere coincidence, nothing more.

[Acriku]

My question is, how could all of them (i understand the leaders, but the rest) be so damn good fighting?

They train all their lives. Also instinct is a big part of it. What else are you going to do in a desert? Fight to survive.

[nemafakei]

One thing I must say:

SW is popular because it has an unrealistic level of action, without the intricacies of Dune. However, the basic idea was the same, and certainly a copy of Dune. Your list is brilliant, Mahdi.

[vidiware]

Admittedly there are some similarities, but alot of what you're saying is complete rubbish!

I have a much greater respect for the work's of Frank Herbert than I do of George Lucas, but still...

The thing about comparing the X-Wing to the Sandworm - grasping at straws just alittle?!

And having the hero's family killed by the big baddie is one of the biggest cliches in film!

I think George Lucas used Dune as inspiration, but alot of the ideas are mere coincidence, nothing more.

The thing about comparing the X-Wing to the Sandworm - This line i can agree!

But Mr. Herbert isn't worth more respect than Mr. Lucas!

we are all human beeings, so you could like him better than George, but not give him more respect

I agree with the religion.. But both are from asia

[Mahdi]

Admittedly there are some similarities, but alot of what you're saying is complete rubbish!

I have a much greater respect for the work's of Frank Herbert than I do of George Lucas, but still...

The thing about comparing the X-Wing to the Sandworm - grasping at straws just alittle?!

And having the hero's family killed by the big baddie is one of the biggest cliches in film!

I think George Lucas used Dune as inspiration, but alot of the ideas are mere coincidence, nothing more.

I never once compared an X-wing to a sandworm. Where are you seeing that? Really, I'd like to know in case I wasn't clear somewhere and you misunderstood what I was saying.

[Acriku]

I never once compared an X-wing to a sandworm. Where are you seeing that? Really, I'd like to know in case I wasn't clear somewhere and you misunderstood what I was saying.

I don't believe it was you Mahdi, but none other than...*hold for suspense...*

Ordos45! :)

X-Wing/Sandworm: The X-Wing is flown by Luke to blow up the first death star. The sandworm is ridden by Paul in the attack on the Emperor's Palace.

I don't think it's grasping for straws, it's quite a coincidence - or is it...*dramatic cord*

[Mahdi]

There are quite a few things in my rough draft (and will be int he final draft) that are stretched pretty thin, however, I've got to side with the "grasping for straws" side when it comes to the sandworm/X-wing. You could say that both had the hero riding to destroy his enemies stronghold at the end as part of the plot simularities, but the X-Wing and the Sandworm beingt he same? I don't see it.

[nemafakei]

Coincidence, people cry. Well, we geneally agree that some links are valid... Lucas may have subconsciously decided to make a lot more of his film from Dume's material than he realised.

[quoudam72]

Coincidence if anybody has one of the older copies of the Dune Chroniciles did you ever notice how on the cover of Dune Chapterhouse it looks like the Deathstar? And if if any real comparasions were to be made how about the Jedi and the Bene Gesserit or Sith and the Honored Mates?

[ordos45]

I never thought of it as looking like the death star, because the building or ship is more oval shaped than circular. But yes, my dad got the books as they came out so have it.

As for Jedi/Bene Gesserit and Sith/Honoured Matres, I think people on this site brought it up.

[quoudam72]

Oval or round it does not matter it still looks alot like the Deathstar. Same color and same basic shape and at any rate it is a much better comparasion than a x-wing and a sandworm. As far as the other comparasion about Sith/Honored Mates and Bene Gesserit/Jedi o.k.

[ordos45]

Honored Matres/Sith: Someone already compared the Jedi with the Bene Gesserit. The Sith are the evil counterpart of the Jedi and use evil methods. The Honored Matres are the evil counterpart for the Bene Gesserit in Heretics and Chapterhouse, they use banned and illegal evil methods. Both the Bene Gesserit and Jedi eventually overcame their "dark sides" in the end.

That is from reply #6.

[quoudam72]

Ok what about the clones in Star Wars and the gholas of Dune. Any comments on that comparision?

[Mahdi]

Clones and ghola's are different things, and clones have been around since before Dune.