Not Site Updates

[Lord J]

So, I check the forums today and it turns out that my thread, that I specifically asked to remain unlocked has been locked. Suffice to say that I am not happy.

I thought I made it obvious that my hypothesis is that with a particular thread in which to flame one another, Dante and Eras would not cause other threads in PRP to be locked with incessant off-topic flaming. Although it seemed to be working, the moderatorship of this board apparently disagreed with the point of the experiment. So now I guess we'll just see how many threads remain unlocked in PRP over the course of the next few weeks.

I strongly suspect that (like most other unwanted behaviors) flaming can be brought under contextual control: if there is a context in which flaming is appropriate, it will occur there, and the matching law predicts that it will not occur (at least as frequently) in other contexts. By locking the flame-appropriate context, however, the moderators are inadvertently suggesting that flaming should occur at a lower level throughout the PRP board, instead of at a high rate in one particular thread. Well, I guess we posters in PRP will now suffer the consequences.

Also, there is another theory that predicts the effect of locking the "Heterosexuality" thread: by shutting it down, flaming will now become somewhat entrenched and part of every thread on PRP. So, long story short, I guess we'll just see what the outcome of this locking is. It will be interesting to see how many threads get locked for this nonsense before someone is banned, since that will really the only solution left to the moderatorship.

[SandChigger]

Dispersed flaming gives more opportunities to exercise control.

Control is everything, after all.

LOL. Later!

[athanasios]

Better they shut it down. Oh God I am fed up with all those homosexual endless debates. And really p***** to turn on the TV tonight (kontra channel) while eating and watch 'homosexuality in teenagers' = just a photocopy of what is posted here. I swithced to MEGA which had the usual propaganda, then to a couple of channels with the usual replays of documentaries (about nature, the grizzly, etc) and the rest not worth to mention about, except the one with the crazy bookseller (the moron who makes money by selling garbage-conspiracy theories and other cranky 'literature', if we were allowed to use that term, to other morons). I agreed only at the point that we shouldn't bomb Libya. I shut the TV to avoid breaking it... Please I don't want to break my monitor either.

[Andrew]

I locked the thread because every post seemed to have insults issued towards another member. Now if for some reason no one minded the insults, I guess it can be unlocked.

I understand your hypothesis LordJ, to keep the flaming to one thread, but to me it seemed the last couple pages were not even discussing homosexuality/topic, just making insults to one another, like some sort of competition. There never were any 'reports' of someone having a problem with thread. So reopening is an option, and if anyone has a problem they can use the 'report' button. Feel free to use 'report' button for any post.

EDIT:

@ Spectral Paladin

I didn't have anything to do with dragon age thread, but it was necessary to lock as the thread creator was baiting/insulting others in posts. You may have missed the last couple posts.

[Dante]

I certainly did. Kind of a shame it disappeared, as I had hoped to have a discussion in the context of games, without the usual PRP nonsense. Though not with the original author, I admit.

Now, Fed2k has a very open policy of free speech, and I for one am very glad of that. Whether it's due to disinterest on the part of the moderators or a genuine belief in "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it," the effect is the same. I've always been grateful for that.

Since the layout changed I can't actually find the rules, but somewhere in there there is one that goes along the lines of "harassment is bad." And maybe it's just my imagination, but I've always worked under the belief that I've been allowed to bend that rule so much because of a tacit acknowledgement on the part of the moderators that I was responding to content that was basically uncivilised and unacceptable but which was protected by free speech. "Fight fire with fire," as it were.

Perhaps that wasn't the case. Perhaps everyone just sighed, rolled their eyes and muttered "they're at it again." Regardless, I'd like to state for the record that while my reactions have been caustic, I am the injured party here. And additionally, I'm not alone, I'm just the most vocal part of the crowd.

This next bit is intended as a statement of fact, rather than deliberate insult, and it's aimed towards the staff more than the person in question. Please keep that in mind.

Eras is basically irredeemable. He's racist, misogynistic, homophobic, anti-science, anti-sensible-religions, bigotted, trollish and, as we've all noticed by now, really quite stupid. None of those are adequate reasons to ban him (though they would be in a different forum, perhaps one with a greater emphasis on order than free speech), and indeed if I wanted him banned I've have said so a long time ago. It's his constant flame-baiting which is a problem. He takes the slimmest opportunities to turn conversations towards homosexuality or evolution, I don't know why, he seems to be obsessed, but regardless of the reason it leads to responses from those of us who like to defend rational thought, and these tend towards the vitriolic simply to balance the levels of bile we're responding to.

My point is that, while I am aware that my behaviour has been venomous of late, it is a justified and proportionate response to the degree of insult directed at myself and others.

If, for example, eras were forbidden from discussing homosexuality, you can be reasonably sure that the subject would almost disappear overnight simply because nobody else is interested in talking about it, including myself. This forum just isn't a useful place to talk about gay rights, in much the same way as it isn't a useful place to talk about welding or feminism of the 1890's. I'm not saying anything so ridiculous as establishing "taboo" subjects that nobody can talk about. Just stop him from mentioning it ever again. Failing that, give him a place to post his fixation. That way it shouldn't corrupt other threads too much.

[Andrew]

I certainly did. Kind of a shame it disappeared, as I had hoped to have a discussion in the context of games, without the usual PRP nonsense. Though not with the original author, I admit.

Yep, a perfectly rational discussion of homosexuality in games would be possible. Impact, are they portrayed as protagonist or antagonist etc.

In Heterosexuality, Genetics, Environment, Religion... I stated

Is it possible to stop flaming each other? It's pointless and this thread will get locked. State your opinions, discuss etc, but name calling adds nothing of value.

That didn't happen, so I locked it.

I can unlock it, and send any new bad comment to dungeon. The way things were going, it wouldn't work though. A better option would be new thread created.

[ErasOmnius]

Now, Fed2k has a very open policy of free speech, and I for one am very glad of that. Whether it's due to disinterest on the part of the moderators or a genuine belief in "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it," the effect is the same. I've always been grateful for that.

You're right there, Fed2k is most open SciFi-oriented Forum on the Internet. It is deeply appreciated.

Since the layout changed I can't actually find the rules, but somewhere in there there is one that goes along the lines of "harassment is bad." And maybe it's just my imagination, but I've always worked under the belief that I've been allowed to bend that rule so much because of a tacit acknowledgement on the part of the moderators that I was responding to content that was basically uncivilised and unacceptable but which was protected by free speech. "Fight fire with fire," as it were.

Perhaps that wasn't the case. Perhaps everyone just sighed, rolled their eyes and muttered "they're at it again." Regardless, I'd like to state for the record that while my reactions have been caustic, I am the injured party here. And additionally, I'm not alone, I'm just the most vocal part of the crowd.

How have you been injured? I am not saying that laws should be changed, or that you should be censored in any way.

This next bit is intended as a statement of fact, rather than deliberate insult, and it's aimed towards the staff more than the person in question. Please keep that in mind.

Eras is basically irredeemable.

Your redeemable, or I wouldn't be here.

He's racist, misogynistic, homophobic, anti-science, anti-sensible-religions, bigotted, trollish and, as we've all noticed by now, really quite stupid. None of those are adequate reasons to ban him (though they would be in a different forum, perhaps one with a greater emphasis on order than free speech), and indeed if I wanted him banned I've have said so a long time ago.

Nothing I have ever done has ever risen to the level of deserving to be banned. I may be banned because people don't like the traditional New Testament view of their behaviors, and that it is not as much 'fun' to be on the Fed2k, because now someone is on the Forum representing the views of the Son of God. Hey, look what the Romans did to Him to shut him up.

It's his constant flame-baiting which is a problem. He takes the slimmest opportunities to turn conversations towards homosexuality or evolution, I don't know why, he seems to be obsessed, but regardless of the reason it leads to responses from those of us who like to defend rational thought, and these tend towards the vitriolic simply to balance the levels of bile we're responding to.

I didn't talk about homosexuality for the last quarter of 2010. Until you took a comment about declining birth rates in The West, and went insulting berserk on me.

My point is that, while I am aware that my behaviour has been venomous of late, it is a justified and proportionate response to the degree of insult directed at myself and others.

If, for example, eras were forbidden from discussing homosexuality, you can be reasonably sure that the subject would almost disappear overnight simply because nobody else is interested in talking about it, including myself. This forum just isn't a useful place to talk about gay rights, in much the same way as it isn't a useful place to talk about welding or feminism of the 1890's. I'm not saying anything so ridiculous as establishing "taboo" subjects that nobody can talk about. Just stop him from mentioning it ever again. Failing that, give him a place to post his fixation. That way it shouldn't corrupt other threads too much.

You see, when you put me down and call me names, it's because we simply disagree on that one issue. So then I have to go back, and try to show you this very fact. If I'm wrong about male homosexuality, I'm wrong. Let me move on in my Forum life. In my opinion, you follow me around the Forum and call me names. I can post in the Dune Forum, you'll be venomous, disagree with me, call me stupid, and watch where I post next, to follow me there. But it doesn't have to be that way.

So honestly, Dante, we are so close to getting along. Let's make that jump to harmony.

[Lord J]

Regardless, I'd like to state for the record that while my reactions have been caustic, I am the injured party here. And additionally, I'm not alone, I'm just the most vocal part of the crowd.

I just wanted to support Dante's statement here, although I would argue that it would have been interesting to see where the discussion of Ugandan politics would have gone if, again, it had not been locked. As I said above, I suppose we'll see what happens.

[Dante]

Would you shut up, eras? This isn't PRP, where you can get up on your soapbox and wax lyrical just to hear your own voice. This is General, there are standards here, and your martyr complex is revolting enough in argument without having to deal with it on neutral ground as well. We don't disagree on one issue, you're just wrong about everything. But I figure (and this to the mods as well) that if your obsession can be taken out of the picture, we won't get along, but at least we can stop you twisting other topics to your own ends all the freaking time.

[athanasios]

Anyone needs fresh olive oil from Greece? It is an excellent bio-fuel!:D

Please not again. It is getting very boring.

[Andrew]

I just wanted to support Dante's statement here, although I would argue that it would have been interesting to see where the discussion of Ugandan politics would have gone if, again, it had not been locked. As I said above, I suppose we'll see what happens.

The thread is locked but not sent to dungeon, so can be easily unlocked (although dungeonized threads can be sent back anyway). I merely want to sort out the name calling.

I'd propose you create a new thread, LordJ and you can copy/paste your relevant sources/topics to discuss from old thread that you nicely provided. If people can participate without breaking rules. If someone feels they need to break rules, then don't bother posting (or use report button if you think someone broke one). This way it can start clean (instead of going through old thread and basically getting rid of most posts). Yes I know rules are 'missing', so here's an old copy someone found.

The following are some things you should avoid doing while using our forum. In most cases if you abuse these rules you will be warned before being banned but we always reserve the right to ban someone if we feel it is appropriate.

• Unless you are a moderator do not reply to threads acting as one. If the moderators feel a thread is improper or should be moved they will do it themselves.
  
• Posts that contain one word responses or rude remarks will be deleted.
  
• There is no need to reply to a thread, especially those older then a month, unless you have something to contribute to the discussion.
  
• If you need to contact someone directly send them an PM.
  
• Avoid repeated use of the same character or smiley.
  
• Discussion of obtaining pirated software is not allowed.
  
• Do not post links to sites that cause your browser/computer to crash.
  
• Use the modify button instead of posting two or more messages in a row.
  
• When replying to an older message in a thread quote that message in your reply so everyone knows what you are talking about.
  
• Do not bump old messages; your post will just be deleted.
  
• Try to stay on-topic, if you want to post something that is off-topic start another thread instead.
  
• Harassing, threatening, intimidating, or discriminating remarks toward other members will not be tolerated.
  
• If you wish to promote your site please do so in your signature or elsewhere. Posting about special events is acceptable.
  
• If you are going to post a spoiler from either a game, movie, or novel please use the [hide][/hide] tags.
  
• Avoid using images in your signature and if you must make them as small as possible.
  
• You are only allowed to have one account on the forum.
  

I'd also like to mention it seems the 'whites only scholarship' thread seems to be deteriorating as well...

EDIT: Reread scholarship thread. Sent to Dungeon.

[ErasOmnius]

I didn't know that supporting Affirmative Action and Reparations in North America could send a Thread to the Dungeon. I'll let the African-American civil rights leaders here in SE MIchigan know that open, honest discussion about the two topics could lead to semi-hurt feelings and 'deterioration'. It seems that only topics that middle-class white men from The West approve of, need to be started here.

[Andrew]

I didn't know that supporting Affirmative Action and Reparations in North America could send a Thread to the Dungeon. I'll let the African-American civil rights leaders here in SE MIchigan know that open, honest discussion about the two topics could lead to semi-hurt feelings and 'deterioration'. It seems that only topics that middle-class white men from The West approve of, need to be started here.

That is not why it was sent to dungeon. The insulting banter between users got it sent to dungeon.

[ErasOmnius]

1. Did you re-set the clock on the Forum to North American Eastern Standard Time?

2. Who was insulting whom? If the goal is for there to be no insults, did you send out specific IMs to the offenders?

Actually, that was the most successful Thread we have had to date. It served good purposes. We all learned a lot of good about each other. People learned I'm not Fred Phelps. I learned that Wolf and I can agree on something. I now better understand the European view of discrimination. It was good, and you should bring it back.

Surely you don't want a Forum where everyone simply leans liberal-left on 'social' issues, and you all just sit around taking turns putting down traditional viewpoints?

[Andrew]

1. Did you re-set the clock on the Forum to North American Eastern Standard Time?

2. Who was insulting whom? If the goal is for there to be no insults, did you send out specific IMs to the offenders?

Actually, that was the most successful Thread we have had to date. It served good purposes. We all learned a lot of good about each other. People learned I'm not Fred Phelps. I learned that Wolf and I can agree on something. I now better understand the European view of discrimination. It was good, and you should bring it back.

1. Nope. I'm still set at Atlantic Standard Time. So not sure what happened there.

2. As far as I can tell, most in the thread. Didn't send out IM as it is easier to simply dungeonize and state in this thread I don't like it so stop doing it to all members.

Surely you don't want a Forum where everyone simply leans liberal-left on 'social' issues, and you all just sit around taking turns putting down traditional viewpoints?

The threads were not locked because of topic, it was the way people participated in them.

[ErasOmnius]

I guess we must all be set to our own time zone.

[Gobalopper]

I've split this off from the Site Updates thread as it didn't belong there.

[Wolf]

I was going to start a new thread in General marked "PRP is Dead"--but I noticed this thread, and felt it would be appropriate to post my comments here.

The long and short of it is: PRP is dead.

No, really. And I know precisely who to blame. Virtually all of the posts of that entire board consist of echo-chamber agreement between athanasios and ErasOmnius--two users who have consistently flamed/trolled their way through arguments that could have been rich, interesting discussions, but instead turned into failed, locked topics. I warned the entire forum last summer that the end result of allowing their participation to go unregulated would be a "chilling effect" on the legitimate speech of other uses. No one wants to participate in a conversation that is guaranteed to attract highly negative attention from two morons whose only desire is to insult you while ignoring the actual substance of the issue you want to talk about, or, in athanasios' case, post incomprehensible links/images in a foreign language (this is, and always has been, against forum policy). Slowly, starting with myself, every user who wished to make a legitimate use of PRP has disappeared. Only Lord J and Andrew (who is a moderator, whose job it is to patrol the board) post, and then only occasionally, and then not even recently.

Can it be saved? I doubt it. Most people who were active here have no desire to come back, or have found other places to have interesting, robust discussions on politics, religion and philosophy. The only way it can be saved, now, I believe, is to regulate, very strongly, the speech of ErasOmnius and athanasios--which was the answer last summer, and has been the answer ever since. This is not, let me be clear, a free speech issue. Everyone has the right to air their views, but if the airing of your "views" necessarily stifles the speech of others, then it is not legitimate speech. Take a look right now at PRP--athanasios has posted two obnoxious new threads in all-caps, one of which consisting solely of a Greek-language image. None of that is going to raise an interesting discussion, and no one has stopped him from doing similar things for months--despite the fact that it's against forum policy. The only responder he ever garners is ErasOmnius, who posts simply to agree with him. Now tell me, was that the purpose for PRP? To provide an echo-chamber for the two biggest jerks on the forum, after a relatively short struggle where their intense insanity drove everyone else away? I don't think so.

Again, let me be clear: I am not blaming those responsible for moderation. I understand that this has been a difficult issue to tackle, because it's not clear whether they are malicious or simply moronic. But we cannot get lost in questions of intent. Does it matter whether the negative behavior that stifles discussion on PRP was motivated by nefarious aims or not? Furthermore, I can understand that it may be difficult to tell which is a legitimate line of argument and which it isn't, and that even legitimate lines of argument may devolve into nonsense. However, I assert that their devolution is always and necessarily the fault of these two users--no one else. If anyone else participates, it is because they have been personally offended. And what is the response of moderation once this person responds? To lock the topic, thereby denying the injured party satisfaction. No, if it is too difficult to moderate the speech of ErasOmnius and athanasios, then I suggest now what I suggested last summer, and simply ban them. You've banned better for less. Even though the two of them are now responsible for nearly 100% of PRP activity, I guarantee you that their absence will eventually be noticed, and the valuable, not-personally motivated discussions that we used to have will eventually return.

I beseech the admins to grant us relief.

[ErasOmnius]

Wolf, I am actually glad that you are out there and paying attention. That shows that eventually you will come back to the fold of thought-inspiring dialog at the PRP Fed2k Forum. I think that a pertinent component of dialog is missing when you are not present.

Actually, the real problem is the locking of Threads, and the sudden ending of dialog -- just when learning experiences are occurring, and new thought processes are being formed.

As far as the Thread about homosexuality is concerned, to Dante's great credit, he has never asked for me to be banned, and I believe he enjoys the back and forth dialog. Confined to one specific Thread, the discussion about homosexuality is actually healthy and productive. If people don't want to talk about the nitty-gritty of male homosexuality, and what it involves, and doesn't involve -- don't open up and read the Thread. Leave it to Dante & Dragoon, and myself; to thrash it out. I've learned a lot from the Thread, and isn't that the goal?

As far as Dungeoning Threads, that is especially Counter-Productive in my opinion. We are all busy, and have complex lives to lead. I find it sad that a topic that was really sponsoring great dialog [Whites-Only Scholarship] was not only locked, but dungeoned and made to disappear! Now that is sad. 3 weeks of great back and forth posting as if it never happened.

Each and every person who posts on a Forum is another facet in the great jewel that comprises a Forum. Every voice that contributes has a vitality that gives to the whole. Unless a person is purposefully calling someone names, or trying to hurt someone--then that voice should be listened to and debated. Banning dissent and differing voice views has never helped or contributed anything good to this world, and never will.

There are many reasons for the Forums to have a decrease in activity. No DUNE movie coming out in 2012. Kevin and Brian's last 5 books turning into pure <blank>. No more Dune mini-series on syfy. All of these reasons are contributors.

[Dragoon Knight]

[colour=#005FFF]Eras, you've learned nothing. Or you think you've learned things that you will make up. No-one likes talking to you, except for ath. I can guarantee that Dante and I would be far happier if you simply disappeared. Arguing with you is not intelligent discourse; it is a horrible practice that I only partake in because people who are wrong on a level such as you deserve to be told repeatedly. You, and others like you, cannot be left to think for even a second that what you say is accepted in any way. This is all I am saying on the matter. Whatever you come out with after this, Eras - especially if it's more delusions about us all having fun and making progress and being friends - I don't care. You're wrong, you always will be, you've been proven wrong more times than can reasonably be counted and all you do is spew more ignorant hate, thread after thread, never listening, never learning, never changing.

Wolf, I completely agree with what you've posted, and would also call for Eras to be banned. Ath is also breaking the rules; sometimes as flagrantly and ignorantly as Eras, but mostly just in posting Greek articles that mean nothing to anyone, ever. He's like a Greek News RSS feed I accidentally subscribed to and can't get rid of. I'd say that his posts should simply be carefully moderated; perhaps collate all of his sensationalist nonsense into a "Capital Letters and Greek: No-one Cares" thread?

Something needs to be done, anyway.[/colour]

[Andrew]

Trying to merge bankrupt thread. Software not working at the moment.

As far as I know only 2 threads (at least from me) have been locked in long time (not including obvious troll/harassment threads), so I wouldn't be complaining about some conspiracy that mods are shutting down everything causing problems.

athanasios please try to contain your greek stories to a single thread (Exposed!), and provide english links as I don't think many people speak greek (thus making your greek language links pointless). Similar problem with marx reloaded thread, you provide image and youtube link, and I had to go research what it was you were trying to present. I don't know if you are wanting a discussion on Marx philosophy relating to what the documentary is trying to convey or what (I only know some of his economical stuff).

[athanasios]

A country going Bankrupt and towards Fascism I suppose deserves its own thread. We have to destroy the egg of the snake before it is too late, or all of us will share responsibility for a new holocaust. Anyway if you want to merge it no problem. The question is where? Even Exposed! should exist. I had forgotten that there existed a more suitable topic by Wolf. I suggest you merge Exposed!, and Bankrupt, if you insist with it. Fascism is a possible form of rulership after Western Civilization collapses...

Should I remind you that part of your posts today in Canada Elections are out of topic too? They should be in Exposed! thread too. Anyway I do not mind about it so much, as others do, I am more interested in the info then where it is posted. ;-)

-

Marx Reloaded is a documentary. I just linked to the trailer because it looks interesting and to inform the members of the forums about it. Was the title so hard to guess it? (With Edric O absent I don't think any member wishes to discuss Marx philosophy, including myself.)

-

For many videos and photos we do not need to know a specific language to understand the meaning.

Where a translation IS necessary, and I do not provide one, I add a '(Greek)' or other language next to the link.

Some links are there as proof of what I state (e.g. legal documents) these do not need to be translated as they refer to what have already written.

Some links are there to give credit to the source of the information. This is also unavoidable due to copyright issues.

Finally some articles I link to are not in English, but I mention that they provide many English links within themselves.

If some members of these forums fail to read correctly my posts and start complaining it is not my fault.

If some members of these forums have nothing constructive to add in the PRP topics it is not my fault.

[Andrew]

Should I remind you that part of your posts today in Canada Elections are out of topic too? They should be in Exposed! thread too.

It relates more to Canadian politics during an election than Exposed!

[athanasios]

OK!

[Dante]

Ugh, argh, blergh.

And other utterances of disgust.

Every so often I think of starting a post "pay attention, because I'm only going to say this once," but I never do. You know why? Because I will inevitably repeat myself, as the point never sinks in. Regardless, pay attention anyway eras, as my whimsically epithet-free mood will shatter the moment you next say something stupid, and General has higher standards of discourse than PRP.

> You do not inspire thoughts, you inspire irritation.

> If you learned anything from any of the arguments, you have yet to show it. If you think you taught us anything... well, "barking up the wrong tree" doesn't even begin to cover it. Perhaps the wrong orchard. In the wrong farm. On another planet.

> What I enjoy about interacting with you can be divided into three distinct categories:

1) I revel in my superiority.

2) Crafting insults is fun.

3) That feeling of satisfaction you get when a distasteful job is completed. Like unblocking the sink or passing a large bowel movement.

But "dialog?" No, that's largely a chore. Reading anything you write is a chore. It's reading bad half-arguments written badly. There's nothing even slightly enjoyable there.

> The sole reason I've never asked for you to be banned is because it would reflect badly on me. It could suggest that I'm incapable of dealing with your... idiosyncrasies and have to run to the rulebook for help. It's not because you don't deserve it, because you certainly do, it's because I'm prideful.

> To touch on an earlier point: you don't promote free thinking and you aren't a sparkling diamond. To borrow your metaphor, you're the flaw; the part of the gem that needs to be cut away so that the rest of it can shine free of obstruction.

Finally, I'd just like to add that I second everything Wolf said. Everything.