Response to Hwi

[Eliyyahu]

Hwi,

I decided to make a new topic for this discussion.

That is not true.  As many Jews understood, the Old Law Covenant was a mere shadow of the good things to come, a tutor leading them to Christ.

You will not find a single prophet from Moses to Malachi who teaches that Torah observance for Jews would some day come to an end.  The Torah's centrality in the books of the prophets whether speaking of their own day or of the messianic era is impossible to miss.  You almost have to try to miss it.

Exodus 31:16-17 (KJV)

16. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant (B'RIT 'OLAM).

17. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever ('OLAM): for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

There is no limit placed on the Jews

[Eliyyahu]

Also consider the Jewish Passover celebration and how it prefigured Christ

[ErasOmnius]

I appreciate what you are trying to do, Eliyyahu. But should there be a thread name with a member's name in it?

[Eliyyahu]

I can change the title if it is inappropriate.  I created a separate thread because the topic goes beyond the scope of the thread the discussion began in.  The title was just to get her attention, so she realized this was my reply to her, as it is her post I am specifically responding to.

[Dante]

Eliyyahu, I seem to remember you mentioning that you were originally known by another name here. If you don't remember your password, I'm sure the mods could merge your accounts if you find out what your old username was.

And as regards this specific thread, I'm impressed. Not being religious myself there's not much I can comment on, but I look forward to observing the coming debate.

[Wolf]

This is astonishingly hard work for a post, Eliyyahu! I'm impressed. But, I doubt you may find much reasoned debate: she only attempted to tie the Old and New Testaments together via Jesus Christ in order to equate the Book of Leviticus' prohibition against homosexual relationships with a statement by Jesus Christ, Himself. Once she's realized she's lost there, or it isn't worth pursuing that line of reasoning in that context, she may not consider it worth her while to discuss this with you. But, as I said, I'm very impressed. When I get a chance, I will take a look at it and respond, myself.

[chatfsh]

Eliyyahu,

Thank you for providing all of this enlightening information and for splitting it off into a new thread.  I find the topic engaging and thought provoking.  Obviously, this matter deserves and requires some time for thoughtful reflection and research.  I hope to reply in-depth in the next few days.  Meanwhile, I will say that as a Christian, I have great respect and admiration for the Jewish faith and am very interested in the Torah.  So I look forward to discussing this subject with you.

One area in which we may be in agreement is that of biblical eschatology.  I believe that end times prophecy has little to do with the Christian church, but rather, has everything to do with the literal modern day nation of Israel.

[Eliyyahu]

Dante,

Yes, I had another account previously, but I am not worried about recovering it.  The discussions of the past are still there in the archives.  But if it is an issue I will pursue the old account.  I have no intention of using multiples or any funny business.  Thank you for your kind words.  I hope a meaningful discussion can be had here.  I want to make clear that I have no desire to convert anyone to my beliefs.  In all of the Torah and the Prophets one will never find a command to convert non-Jews to Judaism, nor an emphasis on making the whole world into Jews.  I don't want to make it sound like Jews were/are not concerned with the fate of the nations, it's just that we do not believe the fate of the nations is tied into whether they are Jews or not, or whether they observe the hundreds of mitzvot of the Torah (which they never agreed to or were obligated to observe) or not.

Wolf,

Thank you.  Hopefully some good discussion can be had here.  I will try to do my part.

Hwi,

Don't worry about time, I know I posted a lot, and it required time and care, so I expect a response to require time and care as well.

[MrFlibble]

Somewhat belatedly, I join the others in expressing my appreciation towards your posts, Eliyyahu. I enjoyed reading them, and the thoroughness of your work is truly commendable :)

But should there be a thread name with a member's name in it?

I'm positive there's nothing wrong with it. After all, this is a debate. On the other hand, though, adding a more general title (e.g. "Connections between the Old and the New Testament (a response to Hwi)") wouldn't hurt either :)

I can post many more, but it is all the same point.  God may raise up a leader for Israel like Moses, or Joshua, or Otniel, or Deborah, or David, but they are all serving the same purposes.  Teaching the people to learn and observe Torah, protecting them from their enemies, from physical harm, so that they could enjoy the land.

Never does God or any prophet speaking for Him say anything like,

[arnoldo]

You will not find a single prophet from Moses to Malachi who teaches that Torah observance for Jews would some day come to an end.  .

Perhaps not, but you will find the following;

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (New International Version)

31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,

      "when I will make a new covenant

      with the house of Israel

      and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant

      I made with their forefathers

      when I took them by the hand

      to lead them out of Egypt,

      because they broke my covenant,

      though I was a husband to [a] them, "

      declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel

      after that time," declares the LORD.

      "I will put my law in their minds

      and write it on their hearts.

      I will be their God,

      and they will be my people.

. . . and from Isaiah 1

11To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

[Eliyyahu]

Jeremiah 31 speaks of a renewed (not new) covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.  No mention of non-Jews, nor of abolishing or changing the content of the Torah in any way.  The only difference is that the original agreement was violated, while the renewed agreement will not be. It is also worth noting that in Hebrew culture the heart is not the seat of emotion (the liver is) like in the West, rather it is the seat of intellect.

Your reference to Isaiah 1 does not dispute what you quoted from me.  It does not speak of a desire to end Torah observance.  If you follow it to Isaiah 2 you will see that the Torah is central even in the Messianic Age, and this is reiterated throughout the prophets.

[arnoldo]

Jeremiah 31 speaks of a renewed (not new) covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.  No mention of non-Jews, nor of abolishing or changing the content of the Torah in any way.  The only difference is that the original agreement was violated, while the renewed agreement will not be. It is also worth noting that in Hebrew culture the heart is not the seat of emotion (the liver is) like in the West, rather it is the seat of intellect.

Your reference to Isaiah 1 does not dispute what you quoted from me.  It does not speak of a desire to end Torah observance.  If you follow it to Isaiah 2 you will see that the Torah is central even in the Messianic Age, and this is reiterated throughout the prophets.

Yes, the Torah is central to the Messianic Age. Some prophetic writings in the NT suggest that a new Jerusalem Temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will be offered during the messianic age.  However in the OT writings there is ample evidence that something new will occur from Moses stating that "a prophet will arise after me which you should follow" to writings which suggest that salvation will expand beyond the jews to the gentiles.  Your hypothesis that Yeshua was a pharisee is interesting but not likely since He frequently condemned the pharisees for hypocrisy and was himself accused by them for breaking the Sabbath, not following their rules/regulations,etc.  Certainly during the first century there was an hope Israel would experience liberation from the Romans as well as from the Herodians.  The Essenes believed that the Israelite priesthood was corrupted and began to write that a cleansing was necessary and in the meantime prayers were offered instead of sacrifices in the temple as prescribed by the Torah.  Various messianic pretenders arose in the first century as well which were promptly utterly destroyed.  In this volatile climate Jesus preached his gospel and was subsequently accused of blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of God.  This new jewish sect, which later became known as christians, were left to determine how closely they should follow the commandments from circumcision, dietary laws, sabbath observance, etc.  The Ebionites were one early offshoot of christianity which emphasized following the jewish customs as well as emphasizing the humanity, rather than divinity of Jesus.  The Marcionites rejected the humanity of Jesus and instead saw him instead as a spiritual being.  Of course Marcion believed that Jesus completely abolished the entire OT system which he saw as the product of a deranged demiurge.  In Marcion's bible he almost completely through out the OT most of the gospels (except Luke's) and heavily edited the Apostle Paul's writings.  Marcion was wrong.  Did Jesus abolish the Torah? No, He fulfilled it.   

[Eliyyahu]

Arnoldo,

Yes, the Torah is central to the Messianic Age. Some prophetic writings in the NT suggest that a new Jerusalem Temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will be offered during the messianic age.

The last chapters of Ezekiel describe the Temple and offerings in the Messianic Era.

However in the OT writings there is ample evidence that something new will occur

No matter how you word it, the OT does not support the notion of the Torah ceasing to be required to be observed by Jews, nor one person observing or fulfilling it for an other.

from Moses stating that "a prophet will arise after me which you should follow"

Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18:18 do not speak of

[chatfsh]

Eliyyahu,

This is a very interesting topic to explore and I am glad to be able to discuss it with an observant Jew.  Naturally, one week is hardly adequate time to do extensive research on this subject, but the topic has truly engaged my attention.  Over the course of this discussion, I hope that we will eventually be able to address each of the points that you have raised, but for now, let

[arnoldo]

Arnoldo,

The last chapters of Ezekiel describe the Temple and offerings in the Messianic Era.

The Book of Revelations describes the Temple in existence prior to the Messianic Era.

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told,

[Eliyyahu]

Hwi,

Regarding Isaiah 53, Jews interpret this (it begins in Isaiah 52:13) as referring to the righteous remnant of Israel (which is spoken of throughout the Prophets).  It is the custom in the book of Isaiah to call Israel/Jacob/Jeshurun by the word avdi/My servant (a conjugation of the noun 'eved'), and the things described in these verses are things which appear throughout the Hebrew Bible in reference to Israel.  Psalm 44 includes many the same themes.

Psalms 44:1-26 (KJV)

1. We have heard with our ears, O God, our fathers have told us, what work thou didst in their days, in the times of old.

2. How thou didst drive out the heathen with thy hand, and plantedst them; how thou didst afflict the people, and cast them out.

3. For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.

4. Thou art my King, O God: command deliverances for Jacob.

5. Through thee will we push down our enemies: through thy name will we tread them under that rise up against us.

6. For I will not trust in my bow, neither shall my sword save me.

7. But thou hast saved us from our enemies, and hast put them to shame that hated us.

8. In God we boast all the day long, and praise thy name for ever. Selah.

9. But thou hast cast off, and put us to shame; and goest not forth with our armies.

10. Thou makest us to turn back from the enemy: and they which hate us spoil for themselves.

11. Thou hast given us like sheep appointed for meat; and hast scattered us among the heathen.

12. Thou sellest thy people for nought, and dost not increase thy wealth by their price.

13. Thou makest us a reproach to our neighbours, a scorn and a derision to them that are round about us.

14. Thou makest us a byword among the heathen, a shaking of the head among the people.

15. My confusion is continually before me, and the shame of my face hath covered me,

16. For the voice of him that reproacheth and blasphemeth; by reason of the enemy and avenger.

17. All this is come upon us; yet have we not forgotten thee, neither have we dealt falsely in thy covenant.

18. Our heart is not turned back, neither have our steps declined from thy way;

19. Though thou hast sore broken us in the place of dragons, and covered us with the shadow of death.

20. If we have forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a strange god;

21. Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

22. Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

23. Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever.

24. Wherefore hidest thou thy face, and forgettest our affliction and our oppression?

25. For our soul is bowed down to the dust: our belly cleaveth unto the earth.

26. Arise for our help, and redeem us for thy mercies' sake.

I have run across only a handful of Christian translations which translate Isaiah 53 accurately according to the Hebrew, and which acknowledge that the plain meaning of the text refers to the righteous of Israel.

I can point you to a much more in depth article which examines the translations against the original Hebrew (which I do not have the time to do right now).  What I will do is point out a few of these translation problems.  Since you provided your own translation I will use that.

[Eliyyahu]

The Book of Revelations describes the Temple in existence prior to the Messianic Era.

I don't mean to offend you, but Revelation has no relevence whatsoever to a Jew.  It's fan fiction to us.

The Apostle Paul also did not support the Torah ceasing to be required to be observed by Jews

We will just have to agree to disagree, as I am positive any reference I give to Paul doing exactly that, or speaking about the Torah in a way that would be offensive to any Jew, will be explained as somehow meaning something else.

[athanasios]

Once again you are playing with the words and referring to dubious translations. The meaning doesn't change with what you say.

Septuagint to the rescue:

ὅτι παιδίον ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν υἱὸς καὶ ἐδόθη ἡμῖν οὗ ἡ ἀρχὴ ἐγενήθη ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου αὐτοῦ καὶ καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος ἐγὼ γὰρ ἄξω εἰρήνην ἐπὶ τοὺς ἄρχοντας εἰρήνην καὶ ὑγίειαν αὐτῷ

μεγάλη ἡ ἀρχὴ αὐτοῦ καὶ τῆς εἰρήνης αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔστιν ὅριον ἐπὶ τὸν θρόνον Δαυιδ καὶ τὴν βασιλείαν αὐτοῦ κατορθῶσαι αὐτὴν καὶ ἀντιλαβέσθαι αὐτῆς ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ καὶ ἐν κρίματι ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν καὶ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα χρόνον ὁ ζῆλος κυρίου σαβαωθ ποιήσει ταῦτα

[Eliyyahu]

1. I don't require translations, I read and study in the original Hebrew.

2.  The real Septuagint, as confirmed by a number of sources (Josephus and Talmud among them), was only a translation of the five books of the Torah.  There was never an authorized Jewish translation of Isaiah before the time of Jesus, or any of the other books of the prophets and writings.

I also want to point out an amusing thing you have done.

A few weeks back you were trying to convince people that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, so to lend a Greek book Hebrew/Jewish credibility.

Yet in this thread you are appealing to the authority of a Greek translation (and I use "a" loosely) over the Hebrew original.

[athanasios]

Talmud? Yeah, very reliable source... LOL!

-

wikipedia:

The oldest manuscripts of the LXX include 2nd century BC fragments of Leviticus and Deuteronomy (Rahlfs nos. 801, 819, and 957), and 1st century BC fragments of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and the Minor Prophets (Rahlfs nos. 802, 803, 805, 848, 942, and 943).

THE FACTS HAVE SPOKEN!

[Dante]

And so have you.

Ah yes, again the scum of wikipedia and the fairy tales of Q.

If you read the article well you will notice the stupidity and anti-christian propaganda of wikipedia and those so-called scholars it favors...

Who cares to read the vicious propaganda in wikipedia.  Our ancient texts, the ones that survived from the malicious attack to eradicate anything Greek, are enough for us.

[Eliyyahu]

Talmud? Yeah, very reliable source... LOL!

I am not surprised by your hostility to the Talmud considering it is authentically Jewish, whereas you are in the unenviable position of trying to sell us a Greek book with Greek ideas foreign to the Hebrew Bible.  So long as we continue to exist, our own traditions about ourselves will always be threatening to those who try re-create our history for us to sell their beliefs.

wikipedia:

The oldest manuscripts of the LXX include 2nd century BC fragments of Leviticus and Deuteronomy (Rahlfs nos. 801, 819, and 957), and 1st century BC fragments of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and the Minor Prophets (Rahlfs nos. 802, 803, 805, 848, 942, and 943).

THE FACTS HAVE SPOKEN!

I did not say nobody tried to translate different books of the prophets and writings into Greek, but that the Septuagint (which people mistakenly apply to the entire Greek "OT") was only a translation of the "law", the five books of Moses, into Greek.  The only authorized Jewish translation of any part of the Hebrew Bible into Greek before the common era was the Torah.  This is recorded in the early sources that relate the story.  If you do not believe those sources on that point you do not believe them, but they are also the only basis for accepting that Jews ever translated any of their Hebrew Bible into Greek.

Regardless, no matter what books or when, they are still not the original Hebrew.  You are still relying on a translation, just like those Christians you look down on for relying on KJVs.

[SandChigger]

Eliyyahu, you no doubt know that there are idiots out there in the world (well, mostly North America?) who believe that the KJV is a truer expression of "God's Word" than the original Hebrew texts. I see no reason not to believe that there are likewise idiots who believe the same about the Greek translations of texts not originally written in that language.

One thing I have always respected about both Jews and Muslims is that you learn, even if only a little, to read your sacred writings in their original languages. Most Paulians do well to read their own.

[ErasOmnius]

Eliyyahu, you no doubt know that there are idiots out there in the world (well, mostly North America?) who believe that the KJV is a truer expression of "God's Word" than the original Hebrew texts. I see no reason not to believe that there are likewise idiots who believe the same about the Greek translations of texts not originally written in that language.

One thing I have always respected about both Jews and Muslims is that you learn, even if only a little, to read your sacred writings in their original languages. Most Paulians do well to read their own.

When you say 'Paulian', do you mean any Gospel or Book in the New Testament and Pseudo-Epidgrapha, or just those written by Paul?

[Eliyyahu]

And there are even greater idiots who believe that LXX is useless because it is just a translation. Understanding of the Hebrew language used in the Scriptures without the Greek translation would be impossible. Ancient Hebrew and Arabic are a nightmare. Yes without Greek we wouldn't be talking now. Jewish religion would be dead and Christianity wouldn't even have a chance to start.

Anybody who can speak modern Hebrew can read the Hebrew Bible, speak it, and understand it.  A little Jewish child does what you for some uninformed reason think to be impossible and a nightmare.  Greek is absolutely meaningless to understanding Hebrew, and has nothing to do with Hebrew whatsoever.

Jewish religion would be dead

LOL.  Greek played no part in the survival of Judaism.  More often than not the Greeks were antagonistic toward Jews and Judaism, some of them trying to wipe out Jewish observance entirely (no circumcision and no Torah and worship of a man as God or a god means no Jews), as did their Roman successors.  Hellenism and Judaism do not mix.  That's not to say that some Greeks weren't drawn to Judaism, or some Jews weren't drawn to Hellenism, but Hellenism and Judaism are at odds with eachother.  Christianity is an attempt to mix them, and has never been internally consistent as a result.

Now about that brain wanker compilation called the Talmud:

http://www.come-and-hear.com/gittin/gittin_57.html

Does any sane person who read the above link thinks we should take it seriously?

SandChigger when you go to Hell what will be your choice? To 'swim in boiling hot semen' or 'in boiling hot shit'?

Still I am a bit happy when I am reading the Talmud: How much you try and how amusing your posts are, still you can't beat that SandChigger! [evil] LOL!

It is not worth explaining the Talmud to you, nor do I feel inclined to defend it against poor translations, and even poorer interpretations.  You can read the Talmud as well as you can read the Hebrew Bible, which is to say not at all.  The bottom line is that the NT will never have the status among real Jews as the Talmud, which is authentic Jewish tradition, has had.