Israel attacks "Free Gaza" flotilla

[vota dc]

I am much concerned about Turkey. Government is in conflict with the Army and we cannot be sure who will win. If it is the Army then for sure there will be no war with Israel. They are predictable. But if it is the Government you may expect anything. Those guys are Fanatic Muslims and hate the West. They are not very different from Hamas.

Why not? The Army is even more warmonger than the government. They already split Armenia with URSS, they plan to invade northern Iraq to deal with Kurds. Simply they will attack Israel after they finished the genocide of non turks in Turkey.

But I think it is difficult for the Army to prevail since their model of Young Turks is just a freemason one that doesn't fit with the population.

Not all Jews believe in YHWH and Israel is not a theocratic nation as ancient Israel was.

Too many "fake jews" that comes from Soviet Union. A Putin plan in my opinion.

[athanasios]

Come on Putin didn't exist when the modern nation of Israel was formed.

-

Turkish Army WILL do many horrible things if it is permitted to. But not if it sees that victory cannot be guaranteed. But fanatics don't care.

[Eliyyahu]

Not all Jews believe in YHWH and Israel is not a theocratic nation as ancient Israel was.

Prophecies of restoration in the Old Testament have not been fulfilled.

Something greater is implied than just one nation.

So I don't think that it was God who put them back. They fought for it.

God is not the ruler of this world. Yet he interferes in events to protect his servants. Otherwise Satan would have annihilated us all. There is so much hatred against those who love God.

Israel may not be run in exactly the same manner it was in ancient times, but various levels of observance of traditional Judaism is still extremely important in the state, and you would know this if you had more than a surface understanding of Israel.  As much as people like to call it a secular state it is very attached to it's Jewishness, and this is apparent when one goes there.

Furthermore, ancient Israel was not run by just one super powerful king.  For nearly 500 years the Israelites did not have any king.  However, they had a Kohen Gadol (High Priest), and they had the higher and the lower councils of elders who interpreted and applied the Torah in every day life situations (I know, it's weird, we have nothing like it in the modern world /sarcarm).  All three of these offices operated at different times, sometimes concurrently, in ancient Israel.

When the messianic era is described in the Hebrew Bible, many people don't know or like to ignore that the offices of Melech ("king"), Kohen Gadol ("high priest"), and Shoftim (judges) are ALL described as returning (Ezek. 37:24, chapters 44-48, Is. 1:26).  Both Melech and Kohen Gadol require anointing making both "messiahs."  

While modern Israel may not represent the full picture of the messiah age as laid out in the prophets, it has taken many steps.  Even if one wishes to put no significance in it, more Jews live in Israel today than in any other country in the world.  This was not even the case in Jesus' time, nor at any time since the 8th Century BCE.  Jews as a whole are safer in other countries BECAUSE there is a Jewish state today which is conscious of the well being of Jews in other countries, something which has not existed in thousands of years.

[Andrew]

Unedited Video of Israeli Raid Posted Online

It's an hour long.

Person had to smuggle it out of Israel.

I wonder why Israel doesn't want any video of this event from getting out, I thought they did nothing wrong and therefor no reason to censor anything.

Attack starts around 35 minute mark. Lots of blood and injured people. Some dead at the end.

[ErasOmnius]

Israel may not be run in exactly the same manner it was in ancient times, but various levels of observance of traditional Judaism is still extremely important in the state, and you would know this if you had more than a surface understanding of Israel.  As much as people like to call it a secular state it is very attached to it's Jewishness, and this is apparent when one goes there.

Furthermore, ancient Israel was not run by just one super powerful king.  For nearly 500 years the Israelites did not have any king.  However, they had a Kohen Gadol (High Priest), and they had the higher and the lower councils of elders who interpreted and applied the Torah in every day life situations (I know, it's weird, we have nothing like it in the modern world /sarcarm).  All three of these offices operated at different times, sometimes concurrently, in ancient Israel.

When the messianic era is described in the Hebrew Bible, many people don't know or like to ignore that the offices of Melech ("king"), Kohen Gadol ("high priest"), and Shoftim (judges) are ALL described as returning (Ezek. 37:24, chapters 44-48, Is. 1:26).  Both Melech and Kohen Gadol require anointing making both "messiahs."  

While modern Israel may not represent the full picture of the messiah age as laid out in the prophets, it has taken many steps.  Even if one wishes to put no significance in it, more Jews live in Israel today than in any other country in the world.  This was not even the case in Jesus' time, nor at any time since the 8th Century BCE.  Jews as a whole are safer in other countries BECAUSE there is a Jewish state today which is conscious of the well being of Jews in other countries, something which has not existed in thousands of years.

You're right.

The Son is gathering all of the Jews to Israel.

A nation state coming together 1800-1900 years after being cruelly and forcefully dispersed; coming back to its' homeland with its' culture intact -- is a once in history event.

[Eliyyahu]

The Son is gathering all of the Jews to Israel.

Ezekiel 37:21-28

21. And say to them, So says the Lord God: Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land.

22. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore.

23. And they shall no longer defile themselves with their idols, with their detestable things, or with all their transgressions, and I will save them from all their habitations in which they have sinned, and I will purify them, and they shall be to Me as a people, and I will be to them as a God.

24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them.

25. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.

26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.

27. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.

28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

I see no "the Son" mentioned here or in any of the other messianic era prophecy.  No need.

[ErasOmnius]

Ezekiel 37:21-28

21. And say to them, So says the Lord God: Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land.

22. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore.

23. And they shall no longer defile themselves with their idols, with their detestable things, or with all their transgressions, and I will save them from all their habitations in which they have sinned, and I will purify them, and they shall be to Me as a people, and I will be to them as a God.

24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them.

25. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.

26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.

27. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.

28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

I see no "the Son" mentioned here or in any of the other messianic era prophecy.  No need.

Are you saying that God is gathering the Jews back to Israel?

[Eliyyahu]

That is what I believe, yes.

[Caid Ivik]

What about the Jews who remained in today's Israel? Or Muslims, Christians? Are they somehow integrated into this great restoration? For I don't think the few militant politics of the second-generation immigrants are what defines the country.

[Eliyyahu]

What about the Jews who remained in today's Israel? Or Muslims, Christians?

What about them?

Are they somehow integrated into this great restoration?

Integrated how?

For I don't think the few militant politics of the second-generation immigrants are what defines the country.

What do you mean by this?

[Caid Ivik]

During the British rule, Israel wasn't composed of ethnic Jews only. There were many coming - but new Arabs came or were born as well. Unlike Lebanon, which retained a kind of ethnic diversity, it expelled the Arabs instead, even if they were considerable part of population. Not that I would like to present Lebanon as an example, but the way politics were organized in Israel seem to me like a plain invasion and, technically said, oligarchy of minority over majority. On an ethnic principle. Wasn't the same principle applied on Balkans on the eve of WW1? Or on the Czech and Polish borders with Germany before the second one?

I tend to interpret the history of modern Israel as an effect of work of some very ambitious, but also quite arrogant politicians, employing nationalist and religious demagogy, riding on the post-Nazi shocks. Sure, we can say it is work of God; Quran says even battle of Uhud, where Muslims were defeated, was a work of God. In my opinion any third-league football game is a work of God. Such things are political, how do they affect personal worldview, virtues? Athanasios mentioned many Jews in Israel aren't religious any more, what does then this ethnocentric state do for salvation of a pious Jew?

From other point of view, do you think the Islamic revolution in Iran made Iranians in general more pious? Or, on the other hand, abolition of Ottoman Empire less pious? Or that Nazism ended with Hitler's fall?

[Eliyyahu]

Caid,

I have no issue with responding to the points and assumptions in your most recent post, but I would rather not clutter up the thread with that before you have answered the three questions in my last post.  I asked you those questions so you would phrase your comments more clearly, because I want to know how your questions relate to the post of mine you are responding to, which should allow me to give you a quality response.

[ErasOmnius]

Who is David in verse 24?

[athanasios]

Jesus.

This was posted yesterday:

Had the terrorists succeeded the deciding battle would have been on the sea. The key to the problem was that the Navy had been able to destroy 11 LTTE ships that attempted to smuggle in arms' date=' notably artillery and mortars among others but once the ships were destroyed, [b']some of them on international waters, their fire power declined after 2005 and by 2007-2008 they could not land a single shipment of arms and the terrorists started retreating from all fronts.

[Eliyyahu]

Who is David in verse 24?

A still yet to come descendant of David through Solomon on his father's side.

Notice that he is not described as king of the world.  He is described as king of a re-united Bnei Yisrael (children of Israel) in the land of Yisrael.

All complex apologetics and arguments aside, any Jews in any time after Jesus can open their eyes and see that the Messianic Era described in the Prophets is not here and has as of yet never been here.  No argument can change that, and that is really what it boils down to.  The rest is just commentary.

[Caid Ivik]

Caid,

I have no issue with responding to the points and assumptions in your most recent post, but I would rather not clutter up the thread with that before you have answered the three questions in my last post.  I asked you those questions so you would phrase your comments more clearly, because I want to know how your questions relate to the post of mine you are responding to, which should allow me to give you a quality response.

Of course. You said the God was collecting Jews from around the world in Israel. What's your stance on the Arab immigration in late 19th/early 20th century, and also the communities, which existed there before?

Second question, in face of this diversity, what is the legal ground, on which Israel posits itself as a "Jewish state"? I suggested this is merely a populist rhetoric of the political elite of Israel (and that's my answer for the third question). In the end, for what does need a worldwide religion like Judaism a state? If it's role was primarily cultural like that of Vatican, then I wouldn't ask these question, but Israel has democratic scene and leads wars, and the God doesn't tell them how like in times of the Judges.

[Eliyyahu]

Caid,

Thank you, appreciated.

Of course. You said the God was collecting Jews from around the world in Israel. What's your stance on the Arab immigration in late 19th/early 20th century, and also the communities, which existed there before?

Yes, I believe that God is ultimately behind the Jews return to Israel.  As someone who believes the Hebrew Bible, I think it is significant that the Jews have returned to Israel in such large numbers after so long, and not for lack of desire or trying.  Perhaps we can say that the non-Jewish nations knew what was said in the Hebrew Bible about the Jews

[ErasOmnius]

A still yet to come descendant of David through Solomon on his father's side.

Notice that he is not described as king of the world. He is described as king of a re-united Bnei Yisrael (children of Israel) in the land of Yisrael.

All complex apologetics and arguments aside, any Jews in any time after Jesus can open their eyes and see that the Messianic Era described in the Prophets is not here and has as of yet never been here.  No argument can change that, and that is really what it boils down to.  The rest is just commentary.

Correct, the Messianic Age is not here -- not in any way. Some people have confused the spread of neo-Platonic democracy or a republic, with the Messianic Age.

Obviously, I believe that the Jewish teacher, Joshua [maybe Yeshua in Syrian/Aramaic], is the messiah and God. I believe he took on the race/ethnicity permanently of a Jew when He decided to come to the Earth and live, and existed before-hand as the perfect Son of the perfect Father. So, I believe that aspect of God is a Jew.

So I try very hard to follow many Jewish celebrations and events, Passover, Yom Kippur. Non-Jewish holidays like Christmas, Halloween, I do not acknowledge or observe. This takes a lot of re-working in the mind, because Western Christianity has been so far off, for so many hundreds of years.

But I believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, and God. Would I be considered a type of follower of the Jewish faith?

[Eliyyahu]

Eras,

I don't want to be insensitive to your beliefs, but I do want to honestly answer what I believe to be an honest question.

To a Jew the notion of a human, Jew or gentile, being an incarnation of God is unacceptable.

I don't know if this should be a separate thread or not, I hope a mod will let me know, and I would be happy to move it, or have it moved.

Numbers 23:19 (KJV)

19. God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29 (KJV)

29. And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Isaiah 51:12 (KJV)

12. I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;

Psalms 146:3-4 (KJV)

3. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

4. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV)

4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: (a better translation is, "Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one.")

Deuteronomy 6:14 (KJV)

14. Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;

1 Kings 8:27 (KJV)

27. But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Isaiah 40:18 (KJV)

18. To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

Isaiah 40:25 (KJV)

25. To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isaiah 43:10-11 (KJV)

10. Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 46:5 (KJV)

5. To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

Deuteronomy 4:11-19 (KJV)

11. And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.

12. And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

13. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

14. And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

There are many other quotes along these same lines.  Jews cannot accept a God in any form, let alone a human sacrifice as being a benefit to anybody.  The lesson of the story of Abraham's binding of his son Isaac is "I will never ask this of anyone, neither of parent nor of child."  It is inconceivable for us for God to then turn around and offer a human being on our behalf.  The whole point of offerings was that it had a profound effect on people of those days.  It caused introspection on the part of the person.  It makes no sense to us for God to make an offering for us.  It misses the point, and to Jews it has the opposite of the intended effect.  It doesn't cause us to think, "Wow, God would do that for us?"  It makes us think, "That is not the God we signed up for.  That's not the God of our Hebrew Bible"

You would not be considered as a type of follower of the Jewish faith.  Again, I don't want to offend you, but I must be truthful.  There is no Jesus in our beliefs.  No divine son of God.  No divine Messiah.  No trinity, or gods within gods.  Shabbat and the dietary mitzvot are every bit as in effect for us the laws regarding adultery, murder, etc.  I could never imagine asking God to "take me home to heaven (away from this life)."  I think there is a real disregard for this life by some of those who believe in an afterlife.  I believe He has placed us in this world to experience it, and to try to improve it for the benefit of all of us.

[athanasios]

Nobody claimed that Jesus is the incarnation of YHWH. Jesus is the image of YHWH in the sense that he reflects YHWH's qualities. He is YHWH's firstborn Son. You are repeating the same accusation of your forefathers that Jesus made himself equal to YHWH, whereas he never said do. It is not honest to do so. On the contrary he stated that 'the Father is greater than me'.

To add a bit more, in brief, about some celebrations:

Easter is a pagan celebration: It celebrates the ressurection of Thammuz by Ishtar.

Christmas is a pagan celebration of Satan: It is shaped like the Roman Saturnalia (For God Saturn=Satan*.)

*

1. Saturn

[Eliyyahu]

athanasios,

Nobody claimed that Jesus is the incarnation of YHWH. Jesus is the image of YHWH in the sense that he reflects YHWH's qualities. He is YHWH's firstborn Son. You are repeating the same accusation of your forefathers that Jesus made himself equal to YHWH, whereas he never said do. It is not honest to do so. On the contrary he stated that 'the Father is greater than me'.

No, I don't accuse Jesus of any such thing.  His followers are a different matter.  And it doesn't matter whether they consider him equal or not.  The things they do consider him are things a Jew would never consider another person, and this is not based on a desire to reject Jesus, but on the Torah which they were given 1,500 years before Jesus.  Change the name and it would be the same.  There is nothing Jesus provides a Jew that they cannot get directly from their God.  We need no intermediary.  However you choose to explain it, it is a foreign concept to us.  There is a reason Christianity spread far and wide among non-Jews, but has still not caught on with Jews.  Human gods, divine sons of gods, they were not foreign throughout the Greek and Roman empires, but they were foreign to Jews, always have been, and always will be.

Regarding firstborn son,

Exodus 4:22-23 (KJV)

22. And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23. And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Jeremiah 31:9 (KJV)

9. They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Hosea 11:1 (KJV)

11. When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

To add a bit more, in brief, about some celebrations:

Easter is a pagan celebration: It celebrates the ressurection of Thammuz by Ishtar.

Christmas is a pagan celebration of Satan: It is shaped like the Roman Saturnalia (For God Saturn=Satan*.)

Satan is merely a Hebrew word meaning "adversary."

Beside, the planet Christians historically associate with "Satan" (through their confusion of "Satan" with "Lucifer") is Venus.

Saturn

[ErasOmnius]

Thanks for the answer, Eliyyahu.

It seems strange to ask these ultra-important questions about my  life, under character names from KJA & BH's Legends and Sequels of Dune series.

Nobody claimed that Jesus is the incarnation of YHWH. Jesus is the image of YHWH in the sense that he reflects YHWH's qualities. He is YHWH's firstborn Son. You are repeating the same accusation of your forefathers that Jesus made himself equal to YHWH, whereas he never said do. It is not honest to do so. On the contrary he stated that 'the Father is greater than me'.

ath, Jesus is the Son aspect of YHWH [God], who always existed as God; and chose to permanently be incarnated as a Jewish man around 2000 years ago. As the Son of God, everything is subject to him, except the Father, who is the Father of mankind.

To add a bit more, in brief, about some celebrations:

Easter is a pagan celebration: It celebrates the ressurection of Thammuz by Ishtar.

Christmas is a pagan celebration of Satan: It is shaped like the Roman Saturnalia (For God Saturn=Satan*.)

Correct.

1. Saturn

[athanasios]

Jesus is the Son aspect of YHWH [God], who always existed as God; and chose to permanently be incarnated as a Jewish man around 2000 years ago.

Can you prove this from the Scriptures?

This symbol, just like the swastika, is ancient, and has been used my many different nations. That it appears on the Israeli flag is significant in that it is a symbol that formerly was used to humiliate Jews, but now is a symbol of their own freedom, placed on a prayer shawl.  You find evil in it, but this is cynical.  Additionally, the seal of Israel features the Menorah, both an ancient Jewish religious symbol, and a symbol of the exile (Arch of Titus) which Israel has brought an end to for so many...

Using a symbol of pagan nations and of false Gods is a severe violation of the Law.

Can you show me even one verse of the Scriptures that describes this star as YHWH's approved symbol? NONE!

What you will find is exactly the opposite!

Google can be your friend:

http://www.yosoy.com/New%20Data/Fun%20&%20Photo/Star%20of%20David%20OR%20Star%20of%20Lucifer.htm

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n2223.cfm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/star_of_david.htm

http://www.menorah.org/starofdavid.htmlQuote: But these early hexagrams may have been only ornamental designs; ironically, a swastika, another popular ancient motif, appears alongside the hexagram on the Capernaum synagogue wall.

[Eliyyahu]

athanasios,

I already explained the purpose of the star of David on the flag of Israel.  The websites you linked to are mostly full of baseless ignorance with transparent attempts to demonize the Jews, and link them to their hated Devil figure, who has no basis in the Hebrew Bible.  Seeing the type of links you are receiving your education about Jews from, your posts now make a good deal of sense to me.

[athanasios]

Just a moment, I cited those to show that origin of the Star of David has nothing to do with the OT and David. Far from me the attempts to demonize the Jews. Even one of my best friends is a Jew. Hmm, I forgot to call him to go swimming on Saturday...

But since you read them, you noticed that they also quote Jewish sources.

BTW (nothing to do with selling/promoting the product) why shouldn't the Israeli flag be like this?