President Obama

[Wolf]

I was dealing in generalizations because I, incorrectly, assumed that it was a casual enough discussion. But, even then, the bulk of your last post is rather superfluous for a very important reason: I don't care who builds the radar plan. You, quite condescendingly, tell me that you wouldn't "dare" disagree with the radar plan, and that our wars are, of course, justified "Great Crusades," (Iraq was completely irrelevant, by the way, Caid) when you really missed my point right from the very beginning--seemingly--just for the purpose of making sport with an American. Oh, how Freud would have loved you. I agree with this: You should always approach any offer, in any political situation--be it regional, internal or international--with a degree of suspicion. However, as I understand this particular situation--which is largely a regional one--I see significant cause for why several Eastern European states should pursue some form of AMS in the near future. Why? Because you have the Russian Federation turning off your oil every winter and wondering what it will do when it has no more oil to turn off. I don't care, as I said from the start, who actually builds it, but I'd rather you do it yourselves. Why? Because, if you do it yourselves, we don't spend our tax dollars attempting to protect people who will use that very act of protection as a means to bicker with us, and further, you get to rest safely at night knowing that you weren't manipulated by anyone. Yes, your peace of mind is actually a concern of mine.

At this point, Caid, there are three ways you can respond: 1.) You can argue that you see no need for a radar plan--no matter who builds it--because no states, you think, will ever attempt to target your nation or your neighbors with nuclear arms, and this is a reasonable response, 2.) You can attempt to argue that the United States is attempting to manipulate Slovakia into doing it's bidding, because all the United States really wants to do is to affect the lives of people on the other side of the planet, and Russia, which is no more than a few hundred miles from you and has, somehow, an even worse record of imperialist activity and, to this today, continually attempts to subvert the politics of, forgive me, "Eastern European states," will never, ever, in a million years threaten you with nuclear arms. This is the unreasonable response since... I don't give a damn who builds the shield, among other things. Or, 3.) Perhaps through English being your second or third language, or through my casual treatment of this debate, we've misunderstood each other. I hope it's the third. I suspect not, though.

As a final word, take our money and our shield or leave it, but don't whine to me about it either way.

*EDIT: We are also so, so off-topic that it really isn't even funny. At this point, we might as well be discussing the Slovakian Tatra Tiger economy for all it has to do with President Obama.

[Dante]

As you said, Wolf, I'd rather not have to choose sides either. When it comes down to it though, I live in a small country. A proud country, but a small one. Self-interest dictates either alliances with many small powers or an alliance with a big power. Scotland is already permanently contained within the United Kingdom, which itself is part of the European Union. I'm trying to find an elegant way to phrase this but it's difficult, so bluntly speaking: what I want is for the EU to get its act together and stop acting like a cluster of squabbling plutocrats. If the constituant parts would only work together properly then there would be no need for Chinese, Russian or American interference, there could exist a collection of states that could genuinely look after itself. Not so much a case of "us or them" but "us, not you and not them either." One could reasonably say, then, "If you won't do it then we will," but one could equally ask "if it doesn't threaten you then what business is it of yours?" In essence, the question is one of independence. From whom and to what degree is a matter of debate though.

However, Eastern Europe has been screwed up since World War 1, arguably since Napoleon broke up the Holy Roman Empire. Trying to smoothen that political minefield is going to be a job for generations. Arguably, it would be a better idea for the old powers of Western Europe to band together first before working on the more troubled regions to the East. Unless they sort themselves out that is, but I haven't seen any porcine airlines recently so I won't hold my breath.

Hwi, this is hardly the place for it but there are answers to your musings. Firstly, it's important to acknowledge the difference between calling America stupid and calling Americans stupid. It's a small difference, I'm reasonably sure that I've confused the two before, but it's quite vital. Criticising the war in Iraq or Obama's fiscal policy might be considered criticisms of America, as it was the country that acted regardless of the differing opinions of its citizens. Criticising Americans stems largely from a plentiful feed of stupidity.

"Would you vote for a president who was a confirmed heterosexual?"

"No, no I wouldn't. It's just wrong."

Or something from the same survey that I find much funnier:

"Would you vote for a president who was a confirmed heterosexual?"

"Head over sexual what?"

And that's not even touching on the hilarious subject of geography. Seriously, google 'Americans geography,' there's more.

For a fuller, more hilarious video, see here. It covers geography, history, world events, etc. I wouldn't follow any of those people into a pit, regardless of its depth. There's also a reasonably well thought out article here, which I think covers my point quite nicely.

That point, just to make myself perfectly clear, is not that Americans are universally stupid. It is that the country predisposes its citizens towards ignorance through egocentrism and poor (generously: 'over-specialised') education. There are many Americans who aren't stupid, that's manifestly obvious. There are labs where people don't lick the spoons and places like this where Wolf and his ilk can argue intelligently (even if we may not agree on everything). It's just that, for what appears to be a large majority, simple facts are unknown. And these aren't isolated events. What else are we supposed to think?

As for passports, if you don't understand why it's important to travel (which you clearly don't) then there's no point trying to explain why one is important. Hint: it's not about going to a McDonald's with a different view.

Now, an addendum that's actually on topic: I'm saddened by Andrew's previous post.

[Dragoon Knight]

Jumping in while the topic has swayed slightly towards the intelligence of the average American.

The video Dante linked really sums it all up.  You could argue that it's been edited in a certain way to make it seem worse than it actually is, but those are real answers to real questions, no matter which way you cut it.

It's not really all that surprising when you look at the way things are in the United States.  An education system that places swearing allegiance to God and Country as an important daily routine?  That just wouldn't swing in the UK.

Teacher: Now, children, we must swear fealty to Queen and Country.

Student: What?  We haven't even taken registration.

Teacher: FEALTY.

Student: No!

Teacher: Don't you love your country?  Don't you love GOD?!

Student: I really couldn't give a crap, I can still taste my cornflakes.

Being mostly isolated from the rest of the world (bordered / nearby very few countries) doesn't help their world view, and gives little incentive to learn about other people and places.  Not to mention a healthcare system that exemplifies the "take care of number one" philosophy.

Americans, I feel, are treated like children.  Everything's cheap and plentiful (seriously, come to the UK and then you can complain about fuel prices), everyone drives everywhere for everything.  Millions of little bubbles inside a much larger one.

And the television is the worst part.  Unless it's a decent drama, nearly all US TV is banal dross.  Advertising and news/media that focus more on entertainment and sensationalism than fact - everything is so simplistic.  It might just be the British in me, but American entertainment just seems crude.  Add to that a healthy dose of "we rule the world", and it's hard to argue that the American people are an enlightened bunch.

Now, to counter all of that, I'm not saying that all Americans are idiots.  I'm not even saying that most Americans are idiots - just that a significant percentage are very limited in what they know, and a larger percentage get a lot of what they know dictated to them by a fundamentally flawed news system.

Don't even get me started on the spelling and pronounciation. :P

[chatfsh]

Anyone can take a few examples out of context to ridicule Americans and call them stupid.  When Obama won the presidency, Howard Stern went out on the street randomly asking people who voted for Obama what they thought about his political platform.  Nearly all of the people interviewed hadn

[Wolf]

@Dante: I wholly agree with you regarding your feelings about the European Union, and although you could say I do so almost entirely out of self-interest, I also think that there are lot of positive implications for the rest of the planet should the European Union get it's act together. Firstly, say what you will about the United States, it's endeavors, or its people, but the United States is still, for the most part, a Western liberal democracy. It also happens to be a superpower, and virtually all other entities that challenge this status as such are neither Western, nor liberal, nor democracies. Save, of course, for what the European Union could potentially be. I've said it before on these boards, and it confounds me that people rant and rave about future Chinese hegemony when Europe--arguably in it's "trough" state, with a horrendously small work force when compared to its retirees, it's declining population, it's bickering, what have you--already possesses a larger combined-economy than the United States. With little effort, it could likewise possess a stronger, or at the very least an as-strong, military force. And, as an American, if we have to be replaced as a superpower, or at the least joined by other superpowers, I'd rather it be a European hegemony than a Chinese or a Russian one. Why? Because--and this is just my opinion, formed solely by my life experiences and impressions, mainly from living in London for a while--I believe that Europe is committed to higher principles regarding freedom and human rights. I know that Europe actually cares about things like, oh, say, torture, or the right to practice religion freely or to become financially successful in some form. Maybe it's ethnocentrism (being an American of primarily European descent myself), but when I think of China doing unto other countries what it does unto its own people, I cringe. When I think of how disastrously Russia maintains what passes for "order" in its environs--nothing more substantial than allowing mafiosos to impose their own order for the state--I shiver. And what of Brazil? Where in one year, over 2,000 police offiers were shot to death in Rio? Or what about Iran, which debates, among other things, whether or not Israel should be removed from the face of the planet by force? Our options are fairly limited here, and I'd much rather see the United States, the European Union, and anyone else interested in helping them attempting to maintain some semblance of order in the world. That's really what I care about, at least, whether or not, tomorrow, more people can live orderly lives than today.

@Everyone: And regarding "American stupidity" ... Remember, there are about as many Americans (300M) as there are Europeans in the European Union (500M), you have homegrown nutjobs of your own--Caid listed a few--only they're not as visible for a variety of reasons. For one thing, you have a language barrier between states that prevents you from understanding the more subtle nuances of idiocy (yes, idiocy can be nuanced, take it from an American) that your neighbors possess. Try talking to a Finn about the objective existence of trolls, for example. I don't believe that there is a higher proportion of idiots in the United States than there are in other countries, Britain included--my visit to Millwall disabused me of that notion--amd the only reason I think that "idiocy" has become such a lamentable and obvious stereotype regarding Americans is just what you all have said... at times, we're awfully egotistical and self-centered, and that brings our flaws to the forefront more so than it would in other situations. However, I wouldn't say that America is a "system" that "predisposes" its people to idiocy itself, I'd say it's a system that predisposes people to petty self-centeredness. That's our main failing--but if I may, allow me to rant at Europeans for a second...

Europeans are the most arrogant people on the planet Earth. Counter-intuitive, but true. The most important thing to a European is his image--his pristine veneer of respectability and righteous authority that was, in the old days, bestowed upon him by God and scientific racism, but is now bestowed upon him by his (again, counter-intuitive) fanatic devotion to vague notions of "liberalism." Yes, though I praised you for your nominal commitment to human rights and the like a paragraph or two above, I now condemn you for your failure to earnestly follow through on that commitment consistently, in every case. By God, if you criticize Americans on the one hand for their "original sin" of racism, then why have... oh, let me invoke Millwall again? Why write articles that warn against the near-future of a "white minority in Britain," more often phrased insidiously as, "Britons being a minority in their own country" when you have a 91% white majority? Yes, it was all well and good for you to sit on your high horse and thrash us periodically for our failings until you had to deal with minorities of your own! Europans have, accidentally so I can't fault them, but rather successfully so I can lament it nonetheless, constructed a bizzare international dynamic of conversation whereby Americans receive all the blame, none of the credit, and Europeans and Europeans alone are the sole, de facto judges of right and wrong, in all matters, everywhere in the world, but it is Americans who receive the de jure blame for this very thing. If that isn't the most supreme arrogance, than I don't know what is. Europeans have no idea how lucky they are to have the United States for their cultural whipping boy, doorman and private bodyguard--all at the same time.

EDIT & PS: I havn't even touched anti-Semitism, colonialism--and how most of that blame got shifted on to the United States, again, well done you--your frequent and sordid history of ethnic cleansing that matches our [America's] own in principle, but dwarfs it in scale and vehemence. Still, after us (;)), you're the best people on the planet and I love you.

EDIT & PPS for Dante: I have ilk? What? Who are they?

[Dante]

If it makes you feel any better, we have similar arguments about each other. ;) Before America, we mocked France. And the French appear happy to mock 'les rosbifs.' The Germans would probably mock us too, if they had a sense of humour. If I've noticed anything about the Finns it's that a lot of them cheer up outside their homeland, which is probably fair given that it's mostly snow.

Ilk in the sense of other intelligent Americans. I'm assuming you won't point to Australia when asked to identify Argentina. ;) I'm also reasonably sure that many of your countrymen here could say the same. Acriku or Lord J for example.

Moving on though, Europeans are certainly extremely arrogant. The most arrogant? Mmm, possibly. Not sure. But a lot of us used to own large bits of the world, and the sense of power has never quite faded, especially in Britain and France. I wouldn't say that we believe ourselves superior through some sort of shared liberal value (though the liberals might) or rejection of racism (the BNP exemplify a great deal of what is wrong in this country), just that Europeans tend to believe in their superiority because they are... European. A bit like Americans.

Personally I like to judge people on individual merit rather than place of origin, but that's just me.

Hwi, you still don't get it. Second hint: it's not about size.

[chatfsh]

Frankly, I believe that underlying motive behind most of the criticism launched at Americans is the fact that, currently, the U.S. is the preeminent superpower, the king of the hill so to speak.  All of the lesser powers while befriending us relish in taking potshots at the U.S. at every opportunity.  And while it is true that our self-centered egotism make us easy targets, I would chalk up most of the criticism to plain old envy.  Envy born of resentment over being displaced as the world superpower, and over the relative prosperity and vast opportunities that Americans enjoy.  As much as I love traveling around the world and as much as I appreciate other cultures, I can truly say that there is no place on earth that I would rather call home than the U.S.

[Dragoon Knight]

I can only speak for myself in this matter, but I have a strong belief that many other Brits and Europeans will share my view.  Let me be completely clear.

I am not jealous of the USA in any way related to its place as the "most powerful" country in the world.

I'm jealous of the US because they get nearly all games releases before Europe.  I'm jealous because they get games at half the god-damn price we do, yet still have the temerity to complain about the cost of them.

Very specific areas, with good reasons for the jealousy.  I'm envious of the USA for that.

The other things I've criticised the US for have nothing to do with being jealous or envious.  My basis for calling a significant percentage of the population "stupid" is founded on more than the odd video clip or internet article.  Granted, I haven't lived for as long as some people, but I'm very much an adult, capable of making judgements based on more than petty greed.

In fact, it's the behaviours I see in the American mainstream that make me despair.  I watch BBC News on television, then they switch to the equivalent US coverage, and it's all I can do not to either laugh or cry.  And then I get curious, because surely it can't be all that bad... then I find out it's worse.

I've already mentioned the simplistic entertainment and advertising, and touched on the programming of US youth into blindly reciting a pledge of servitude to their country.  These are not things to be jealous of, Hwi. :P

[chatfsh]

Ok, Dragoon.  You only envious us for our ability to get video games first and cheaply

[Dragoon Knight]

Alas, Region Encoding prevents me from importing any games.  Except for my DS, since the games are region free!

While I'm glad that you're accepting that America is "arrogant" to an extent, I disagree with your reasoning that it's everyone else's fault.  America is a product of shameless self-promotion of a supposed "American Dream".  This advertisement, coupled with the film industry taking root over there, lead to most popular media being developed / produced close to home, as it were (big budget movies shot on location don't really count, here - they're still US-made).  Since the entire world is a slave to media / entertainment, it only stands to reason that the US should stand as the foremost source.

But celebrity hasn't even been mentioned in my reasoning.  True, I have observed US news broadcasts making big of their celebrities and success, but it's beside the point.  It's not even so much about how the country is run politically, but more about the way US citizens live their lives.  Insular, not caring (or possibly not even knowing) about other countries or cultures, all the time ironically holding high their belief at being the "best" country in the world.  How do they even know? :P

[chatfsh]

Hmm, DS games

[Caid Ivik]

I agree with this: You should always approach any offer, in any political situation--be it regional, internal or international--with a degree of suspicion. However, as I understand this particular situation--which is largely a regional one--I see significant cause for why several Eastern European states should pursue some form of AMS in the near future. Why? Because you have the Russian Federation turning off your oil every winter and wondering what it will do when it has no more oil to turn off. I don't care, as I said from the start, who actually builds it, but I'd rather you do it yourselves. Why? Because, if you do it yourselves, we don't spend our tax dollars attempting to protect people who will use that very act of protection as a means to bicker with us, and further, you get to rest safely at night knowing that you weren't manipulated by anyone. Yes, your peace of mind is actually a concern of mine.

At this point, Caid, there are three ways you can respond: 1.) You can argue that you see no need for a radar plan--no matter who builds it--because no states, you think, will ever attempt to target your nation or your neighbors with nuclear arms, and this is a reasonable response, 2.) You can attempt to argue that the United States is attempting to manipulate Slovakia into doing it's bidding, because all the United States really wants to do is to affect the lives of people on the other side of the planet, and Russia, which is no more than a few hundred miles from you and has, somehow, an even worse record of imperialist activity and, to this today, continually attempts to subvert the politics of, forgive me, "Eastern European states," will never, ever, in a million years threaten you with nuclear arms. This is the unreasonable response since... I don't give a damn who builds the shield, among other things. Or, 3.) Perhaps through English being your second or third language, or through my casual treatment of this debate, we've misunderstood each other. I hope it's the third. I suspect not, though.

I have to choose a fourth alternative. I suppose, when Russians try to press on Ukraine with their oil and gas, the natural response for an EU country is to link herself to the sources from Northern Sea and Turkey. There again, it is highly unlikely Russians would physically attack the pipelines. They would rather lower the prices to make such a construction . US have a quite direct conflict of interests with Russia on three fronts, or regions (if you like): Central Asia (namely Turkmenistan and Kyrgyzstan), Arctic Ocean and Caucasus (Georgia). Eastern Europe (with an exception of Ukraine) was getting relatively peaceful, and thus the countries here were generally turning their armies to rapid-response forces, according to needs of warfare in Iraq and Kosovo, based rather on preventing an escalation of conflict and stabilization than an ability to repel enemies in a standard symmetric war. Article 5 of the NATO treaty has relevance.

The other post I'll ignore because it is laden more by emotions than reasonable arguments...the fact there are points in which political cultures differ doesn't mean the other culture is lacking wisdom or what. In fact, I expect US won't build the radar in the end. They won't need it ;)

[Caid Ivik]

Y

[Wolf]

Well said, Dante, and if I may do you one better--I'd say that the main reason there's so much trans-Atlantic mockery is that we see a lot of ourselves in each other. If you will, perhaps we see in each other the aspects we most dislike about ourselves. Both sides see arrogance, snobbery, snideness, self-centeredness to an extent... and both sides see the less-than-ideal aspects of the other's society that we wish weren't true about our own; racism is the perfect example. This is why, getting back to the original locus of my EU post, I think that a strong EU is a good thing: fundamentally, more unites us than separates us. And even that which separates us arises from a certain, profound kinship and similiarty born of shared heritage and experience that I think is too important to ignore. Certainly--although Caid obviously didn't get it, I wonder about him--my Europe rant was harsh in places, but it was tongue-in-cheek as well, and certainly no more harsh than the charge that Americans are quite naturally morons. Certainly, we need to have a sense of humor about things: us Americans regarding our weight, our self-centeredness and our occasional mental lapses, and you Europeans about your insecurities, rudeness, and so forth (though not weight, to quote Dylan Moran, when Europeans are fat it's because they have character).

And, @Caid, honestly, either you don't read or you don't have a sense of humor, either way, that kind of dismissal is just rude. I never charged that one culture was lacking or possessing more wisdom than another, I have no idea why you said that, just as I've had no idea why you said many of the things you've said here. Fundamentally, I think we agree, but you went about it so snidely and defensively--honestly, "insecure" is the best word--that I just don't know.

[Caid Ivik]

Then read again, I tend to write the intentions as well. You won't go beyond your prejudices (and especially prejudices about other people having prejudices) if you'll read only the last line. I'm not focusing myself on Dante's thoughts about American culture, when we speak about policies of governments. It is simpler to say that the disagreement with building of the ABM system in Europe is a reflection of the culture than to admit, that you (personally) agree with Bush that Russia (or China, Iran, Serbia etc) is simply an (at least potential) enemy. Intention: it interests me why you agree with him on this.

[chatfsh]

Alright, I finally had the opportunity to view the disparaging video posted by Dante.  I will give you that it was both humorous and embarrassing to watch these Americans provide such asinine responses to the rudimentary questions posed to them.  However, as I mentioned before, these bits are specifically designed to exaggerate the negative aspects of the American stereotype and to pander to those who harbor those views of Americans.  I suspect that these videos are produced and showcased simply to make foreigners feel better about themselves.

You know full well that if the same questions had been asked of any of the American members of this forum, every single one of those questions would have received an intelligent answer.  The majority of the people that I associate with at work and in my personal life would have been able to provide an intelligent response.

If one continues to base their opinions of Americans upon the generalizations made about Americans as opposed to basing their opinions upon the actual experiences and interactions that they have had with the American community, then one would be rather foolish in continuing to hold said opinions.

[Dragoon Knight]

Yes Hwi, but that only confirms that the people you know and the people who frequent these forums are intelligent.  I could say the same about any Brit here, but we all know that there are people in Scotland (Neds) or England (Chavs) who would barely be able to operate a keyboard, let alone string together a coherent argument.

What I'm saying is that, just because the video has been edited to exaggerate, doesn't lessen the fact that real American people answered those questions - not just people from a certain demographic or background.  It wasn't just the Neds or Chavs of the US that were interviewed, so one begins to wonder if the stereotype of the "dumb American" doesn't have at least some merit to it.

Couple that with my impressions regarding the media / news / entertainment industry over there, and you have the basis of my opinion towards the average US citizen.  When I meet an intelligent American, it's not surprising, per se, but it's nice to know they exist. :)

[chatfsh]

Yes, it is true that as with most stereotypes, there is some basis for the underlying assertions put forth.  I won

[Dragoon Knight]

Yeah, there's definitely the education system to blame, as I outlined in my first post on this issue.  No-one is dumb simply by being born in a certain country - it's how they're raised, what they're spoonfed via the media, and how the country is run that eventually shape who they are.

My opinion of Americans remains the same, regardless of who I meet on the internet.  My entire world view can be summarised in a very basic manner by saying "there are smart people and there are dumb people, but most people are just average".  I'd hazard a guess at approximately 70% of the population of the developed world being just your average guy / girl - not intelligent, but in possession of enough knowledge to not be an idiot.

American people have a lot less average people, with more falling into the idiot category.  Like I said, it's not surprising when you take a look at the media, and by that, I don't mean movies.  I mean the television shows (with certain exemptions for excellent writing / acting, like House) and news programs.  I mean the emphasis on entertainment and advertisement over actual content.  Seriously, watch BBC News for a while, then try going back to your FOX or CNN or whatever. :P

What makes a lot of Americans "dumb" is never seen overseas, since we have no interest in it.  When I meet an intelligent American, I'm all the more grateful for their existence, since they've come from a country that makes being intelligent such a challenge.

[Andrew]

Sorry we

[Dante]

As far as I'm aware, protocol has it that the President should treat the King as an equal. If that involves bowing then it's for both of them. That's why his meeting with the Queen here was a 'meeting.' As fellow heads of states they stand as equals. The Prime Minister here is only the head of government though, so his (and everyone else's) encounters with her majesty are classified as 'audiences.'

If anything, my experience of Americans has reinforced my viewpoint. Some bright sparks, but a whole lot of retards as well.

[chatfsh]

My entire world view can be summarised in a very basic manner by saying "there are smart people and there are dumb people, but most people are just average".  I'd hazard a guess at approximately 70% of the population of the developed world being just your average guy / girl - not intelligent, but in possession of enough knowledge to not be an idiot.

American people have a lot less average people, with more falling into the idiot category. 

Funny, I was recently having a discussion with some colleagues and the same explanation surfaced for why Obama won the election.  Basically, the conclusion was that the majority of people are a bunch of uninformed morons looking for handouts or just eager to be a part of history.  The bit that Howard Stern ran didn

[Tatar Khan]

There are certain protocols around the monarchs that have to be observed, some by foreign officials some by the citizens of the country.

I believe bowing is not necessary for Americans because they are not citizens of the Saudi Arabia and bowing is a ceremonial acknowledgment of the monarch as your own.

[Wolf]

You know, Hwi, in the Declaration it used to be "land, liberty, and property" before we chickened out.

And, Caid, I'm done arguing with you. I really have no idea what you're saying--despite your obviously high opinion of yourself, you actually articulate things quite poorly. Further, your assumptions that, 1.) everything I've said is the result of prejudice (and the asinine clarification "prejudices about other people having prejudices), and 2.) that I didn't bother to read your posts, which I did, and they didn't help, I want my 10 minutes back, are just blandly insulting. Ultimately, all I can glean from you is that you're vaguely suspicious of the United States, where you have about as little justification for that as you accuse your opponents for having regarding the benefits of the shield in the first place, and that there's some delicate network of Eastern European politics which--as Dante pointed out--will take decades to unravel.

Finally, Caid, the last thing that really, good and truly irritates me, is that you've missed my point for probably the fifth time: I don't care who builds the missile shield. Do you not see how this means that I do not agree with "him" (I can only assume you mean Bush, gee, great job expressing yourself) in a very important sense, i.e., that the United States should build the shield? Or, are you good and truly a hypocrite of the first class, and are guilty of exactly what you accused me of?

You won't go beyond your prejudices (and especially prejudices about other people having prejudices) if you'll read only the last line.

*Emphasis added

All I'm saying, and what I think I've demonstrated well, is that Europe would benefit from a ballistic missile shield, consider the number of aggressive neighbors Europe has and the capabilities they possess. I don't care who builds it, if you dislike the United States that much, you can do it yourself. I mean it, Caid, I'm done with you. I hope someone else can chime in and either tell me that I'm hallucinating, or deal with Caid in my absence.

EDIT: And one other thing for the rest of you--particularly Dragoon Knight. The arguments people are making in favor of the notion that "there is a higher proportion of idiots in the United States" or that "Americans are inherently more stupid" is the sort of ignorant trash that, in another context, you would abhor as rank and offensive. Let me assure you, there is no higher proportion of idiots in the United States than anywhere else, you only think there is because of the dominance of our culture, our relatively greater visibility, and your relatively greater anonynimity bestowed upon you by a variety of things--smaller populations, a language barrier, etc. If you merely replaced the word "America" in all of these conversations with the name of some small African or East Asian country, you would be considered nothing more than the vilest and basest racist: an ignorant fool in your own right, but worse than the fools you mock, because you are dangeous--because you are espousing and promoting a damaging stereotype that shows, truly, just how arrogant and only superficially educated you really are. Again, believe me, there is no higher incidence of morons in America than in your countries--you just happen to see them more often because you suck up our brand names, our media, our film, our television, our books and even our magazines to the same extent, but to an even greater volume (there's only 300 million of us) than we  do. And if you truly believe the opposite, then you are proof of what I'm saying.

Forget Caid, I'm done with you people in general for a while.

(EDIT2: Yeah, I mean it--especially you Brits--go back and read your posts to yourselves out loud, only replace instances of "America," "United States," and "American" with "Kenya" and "Kenyan;" or "Pakistan" and "Pakistani," or better yet, "Paki," and then tell me just how educated, intelligent and dignified you sound. My God, you should be ashamed of yourselves.)

(EDIT3: This, in particular, was a gem:

What makes a lot of Americans "dumb" is never seen overseas, since we have no interest in it.  When I meet an intelligent American, I'm all the more grateful for their existence, since they've come from a country that makes being intelligent such a challenge.

*Insert nationality/ethnic group of choice. Wow, Europeans have come so far.)

[Dragoon Knight]

That's a lot of venom, Wolf.  I'm afraid that I'll have to go with Caid on this particular instance, and ask that you fully read my posts.

I understand that you've got my point about not calling all Americans stupid.  What I don't think you're getting is that I'm not even calling most of them stupid.  I'm calling a significantly higher percentage than elsewhere stupid.

Now I accept your point (that Hwi has made previously) that some of this can be put down to America being everywhere you look.  From films to McDonalds, you can't walk down the street nowadays without seeing little scraps of the USA.  But again, I say that my perception of the level of people of lesser intelligence is not based on what the US exports in the mainstream.

There are some exclusions, certainly (Napoleon Dynamite, gods that film was trash), but for the most part, US news isn't broadcast widely outside of the US.  There's worldwide versions of certain channels, and ones dedicated to world coverage, but I'm talking about the real rubbish.  Your news broadcasts seem to feature more focus on entertainment / presentation / political bickering than actual news.  The majority of "daytime television" is mindless dross.  All of this, when fed to the average American (who watches more TV than, say, the average European) is bound to make a higher percentage have a lower average IQ, simply by merit of the US being the only place to broadcast in this fashion.

So I reject your accusations of racism or stereotyping - I am nothing if not tolerant and accepting of others.  But "tolerance" is not something that I have to do when it comes to Americans.  I despair when I see an American being stupid, but I don't automatically assume that all of you are.  Nor do I presume that any Americans I meet are stupid.  I just hold the knowledge that our cultures vary enough to render a higher percentage of the US population "dumber" than compared to the UK or Europe.

If you want a more objective point of view, then take a look at this picture - just one of many sources that give the broadest of outlines as to how the world's IQ looks when divided by country.  Again, please note that I believe a multitude of reasons contribute to the differences shown, but in the case of the US, it's your media, healthcare system, education system and government (aspects of all of them) that cause the difference.