Paul of Dune review

[DoMoNiC_HuNtEr]

GREAT FU CKING MOTHER!

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I noticed Paul of Dune at my local library. Looking at it, I thought, you know what? The last time I read my copy of Dune (the reprinted one with the black background and white strip at the top left with a top down picture of 3 people likely traversing the sands on Dune) was like 4 years ago. Now that I'm older, I knew that if I read it again, I'd appreciate science fiction's supreme masterpiece in it's totality; I knew I'd catch everything, understand and connect with everything. I started the epic story a day ago, by reading the stuff in the back first, and as of today am now at part two. It's... fascinating.

Back to the library, I thought, what the hell? I'll get this book, as it's basically a prequel to Dune Messiah (please, please, PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong), or a sequel to Dune, but written by Frank's son and some other guy. So I'll get this book and read it after I read Dune; chronologically it should be read after Dune, before Dune Messiah, right?

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I visited this site today looking for Dune 2000 downloads, such as patches, mods, editors, anything. I read some cool stuff; it seems that D2K modding is far from dead. That's great! As a side note: if anyone has a High Res patch (I read someone was working on one), please link it.

As I'm browsing the rest of the forums, I come across this thread... my dash... this book sounds terrible. I don't think I'm going to read it. Seems like a waste of time.

YOU DON'T F UCK WITH MUAD'DIB! You don't f uck with the ultimate human.

[Andrew]

Take it easy on the language. :)

If you already have it, try reading it and let us know if most reviews here are correct. :P

That way less reason for me to read it.

[DoMoNiC_HuNtEr]

I dunno man, I really don't think I should read it, because I hate inconsistancies with the original, true canon.

[Dante]

Better to know thy enemy. I read the House series and 2.8 of the Legends trilogy before giving up in disgust. It's worth it just because nothing else will ever seem as bad after you read those books.

[Dunenewt]

I do prefer PoD to the Dune 7 books.

*hides*

[Mahdi]

I do prefer PoD to the Dune 7 books.

*hides*

This would be the perfect time for that line I wasted in the Transformers thread....

You're a fan of the KJABH books in general though, arn't you Dunenewt?

I am surprised at your choosing POD over the Dune 7 books.  I can see no redeeming quality in Paul of Dune whatsoever.  None. 

[SandChigger]

I do prefer PoD to the Dune 7 books.

*hides*

Oh, please. It's just as bad AND boring as hell to boot.

Have you read <i>WoD</i> yet?

More of the same, only worse now because KJA thinks he's free to add any new crap he wants since declaring Frank Herbert's Dune books "in-universe texts" in <i>PoD</i>: Bene Gesserit psychic "guilt-casters", psychic-energy mini-tornadoes on Wallach IX, "chemical" telepathic communication, etc.

Feh! >:(

[ErasOmnius]

I think that "Paul of Dune" has a place in good literature.

Brian and Kevin have done a good job dealing with the topic of Historicity, and a person's place in history.

--SPOILERS AHEAD--

Irulan's talk with Paul about his life before Arrakis brings up a valuable debate about History. Brian and Kevin tying in Irulan's "The Life of Muad'Dib, Volume 1" closely to the account given in the book, "Dune", is very interesting. Having Paul say that "TLOMD,V1" is a propangandic streamlined version of Paul's life for Fremen Jihadi consumption is a good call, and brings relevance to the "Dune" series as a whole, and asks the question about allegory in our own times.

The Swordmaster's debate within himself, and his desire to have a place in history, even to go as far as plan an assassination of Paul, is a further extrapolation of this debate.

History, and our place in it, is what Paul of Dune, should be remembered for.

[MrFlibble]

Are you serious?

[ErasOmnius]

Are you serious?

Yes, I am.

I think that once one looks at Frank Herbert's "Dune" series as somewhat open and malleable, that more good books can be made talking of the primary characters lives.

I think that the debate of history in "Paul", and the debates about free speech and the messiah complex are good ones, and are timely allegories of today.

[MrFlibble]

Irulan's talk with Paul about his life before Arrakis brings up a valuable debate about History. Brian and Kevin tying in Irulan's "The Life of Muad'Dib, Volume 1" closely to the account given in the book, "Dune", is very interesting. Having Paul say that "TLOMD,V1" is a propangandic streamlined version of Paul's life for Fremen Jihadi consumption is a good call, and brings relevance to the "Dune" series as a whole, and asks the question about allegory in our own times.

So they say history is subject to rewriting and can used as a tool of propaganda. So what? Dune had a lot more depth in treating the problems of history and historians.

[ErasOmnius]

I know, "Dune" is a great masterpiece of literature.

But to have Irulan say that "TLOMD, V1", or perhaps "Dune" is a type of in-house book, stream-lined for Fremen consumption, is a very interesting way of saying it is an incomplete rendering of Paul's life.

To be able to successfully package "Paul of Dune" as a wrap-around book covering Paul's childhood and Emperor-ship, and to do it by talking about historicity, is amazing work.

I think Brian and Kevin are doing themselves an injustice by just not coming out and saying that they consider "Dune" and "The Life of Muad'Dib, Part 1" to be the same work.

[MrFlibble]

But to have Irulan say that "TLOMD, V1", or perhaps "Dune" is a type of in-house book, stream-lined for Fremen consumption, is a very interesting way of saying it is an incomplete rendering of Paul's life.

Interesting indeed :P

I think Brian and Kevin are doing themselves an injustice by just not coming out and saying that they consider "Dune" and "The Life of Muad'Dib, Part 1" to be the same work.

Oh are they?

The problem is, this book is as much a personal manifesto defending the authors previous works against Frank Herbert's originals that it is almost impossible to judge it strictly on it's own merits.  There is an entire chapter whose sole purpose is to state that all of the original novels were written purposely wrong by an in-universe character and that anyone who liked them more than the new "true" novels is a gullible, fanatical moron.  Who reads the "original novels" in this book?  The uneducated, violent, stupid (again, only in this novel) Fremen fanatics.  All the intelligent characters look down upon it as intentionally distorted propaganda.

[ErasOmnius]

I think we are placing too much emphasis on the quote from Leto saying that this is the first time Paul has been off-world. The main text of the critical years of "Dune" have not been altered, [10,191 to 10,193].

I am a fan of the Original 6, and I do not feel slighted by Brian and Kevin.

Adding to Paul's childhood helps "Dune" in many ways. The "Prelude" series helped "Dune" immensely. It fleshes out gaps that Frank made to seem un-real, or even skipped.

And honestly, to say that "The Life of Muad'Dib, Volume 1" was streamlined for Fremen consumption was gutsy, series-changing, and a life-changing call for Brian to allow or write.

[MrFlibble]

Adding to Paul's childhood helps "Dune" in many ways. The "Prelude" series helped "Dune" immensely. It fleshes out gaps that Frank made to seem un-real, or even skipped.

In other words, it adds things that weren't originally there.

I think we are placing too much emphasis on the quote from Leto saying that this is the first time Paul has been off-world.

Personally I don't place too much emphasis into that. Although this is a point where the new books openly contradict the originals, there are other, more numerous and less obvious deviations that just make the new books something, eh, different, and not in a positive sense of the word.

I mean, what's that story with Paul traveling with a space gypsy circus? How serious can that be? And, more importantly, how does that really add to Paul's character? It's not Le Capitaine Fracasse we're talking about here.

BTW, I've asked myself the question about how the new books add to the original story ever since I bought (and struggled through) the first Prelude book I've read. I've got the impression that the new books are almost completely detached from the originals, and were actually written for their own sake rather than as a continuation of the story. This new move with declaring the originals in-universe propaganda "streamlined for mass consumption" only adds to this suspicion of mine.

And honestly, to say that "The Life of Muad'Dib, Volume 1" was streamlined for Fremen consumption was gutsy, series-changing, and a life-changing call for Brian to allow or write.

I think I miss your point here.

[ErasOmnius]

I think that the Expanded Dune helps answer questions that Frank may have raced through, or not had time to address. If the "Road to Dune" is to be believed, and it seems like a plausible compilation -- the concept of the messiah-like "Kwisatz Haderach" was a last year addition. So Frank may have rushed some aspects of the Kwisatz and Paul role.

I think that Frank writing "Dune" allowing the Bene Gesserit to simply allow Paul to live 15 years without trying to kidnap him, or simply killing him--may have been a stretch on Frank's part.

I think that Brian and Kevin try to rectify some of this in "Dune: House Corrino". I believe that creating a role such as the "Kwisatz Mother" in the form of Lady Anirul Corrino, and having her die with the full knowledge of who Paul is, at his birth, is a way to explain some of the "Bene Gesserit allowing Paul to grow up peacefully" away. "House Corrino" implies that there were great questions as to who Paul was, and that hemay not have been the super-being.

I think that is one example of a plus added by Brian and Kevin.

[ErasOmnius]

As far as Brian allowing "The Life of Muad'Dib, Volume 1" to correspond to the literatur-altering masterpiece of "Dune", must have been life-changing for Brian Herbert.

To explain "TLOMD,V1" as basically "Dune", and as stream-lined for Fremen consumption is not only gutsy, but it fits! I do not feel insulted. I applaud him for having chutzpah, and for pulling it off correctly.

I feel that since he has taken this monumental step, he should go all the way, and say that "TLOMD,V1" is "Dune".

[Mahdi]

I see what you are saying Eras0smnius, but I completely disagree.  Making "Dune" into a in-universe text (in the way the writers have) does not come off as some brave, visionary plot twist that the writers had to fight tooth and nail against themselves and others to include.  It appears to myself and a great number of readers as simple apologism for the writers own works and an excuse to continue to do whatever they want with the events and characters in the novels. 

"Doesn't match what happened in the original 6 novels?  Well, um, uh, hmm - The original 6 novels are in-universe texts!  Yeah, that's it, it was always part of Frank Herberts plan to write 25 novels and halfway through reveal that the first 6 arn't what really happened!  It said so in his safe-deposit box!  Now shut up and buy more of our much superior books!"

[MrFlibble]

"House Corrino" implies that there were great questions as to who Paul was, and that hemay not have been the super-being.

I think that is one example of a plus added by Brian and Kevin.

So this is not enough anymore?

"He's awake and listening to us," said the old woman. "Sly little rascal." She chuckled. "But royalty has need of slyness. And if he's really the Kwisatz Haderach... well..."

The "Prelude" series helped "Dune" immensely. It fleshes out gaps that Frank made to seem un-real, or even skipped.

Let me show you how the Prelude books have contributed to the originals:

His skin felt oily from the lotion the attendants had smeared all over it.  His hair smelled of flowery perfumes, and his body stank with unnatural deodorizers.  According to Fremen wisdom, sand cleansed the body and the mind. Once he returned from Kaitain, Kynes intended to roll naked on a dune and stand out in the biting wind just to feel truly clean again.

This is perfectly consistent with, and expands upon, what we learn from the original books:

"You're not wearing a stillsuit," Ghanima said. "Did you know that in the old days someone caught outside the sietch without a stillsuit was automatically killed. To waste water was to endanger the tribe."

Indeed it does immensely help to make things more clear, doesn't it? A truly great contribution to the series!

Wait a minute...

Seriously, I laughed when I read about Liet-Kynes "rolling in the sand, naked". Then I put the book aside with the intention not to waste any more time on it.

I feel that since he has taken this monumental step, he should go all the way, and say that "TLOMD,V1" is "Dune".

And better yet, to have it reprinted with "TLOMD,V1" on the cover :D

Besides, no one really makes it a secret. That was their intention in the first place.

[ErasOmnius]

You're right about Liet-Kynes in the sand.

You're right about Liet-Kynes not remebering Gurney Halleck, which I will bring up before anyone else does, since it is so strange that someone would not remember a person that they went into hiding onto Salusa Secundus with. I feel that Brian and Kevin added Liet-Kynes almost as an after-thought, after they had written the Vernius-Kailea parts of "House Harkonnen".

I am also not crazy that Mohiam has to be the Gesserit stirring up the trouble on Caladan in "Winds of Dune".  It is almost like Brian and Kevin are over-using Mohiam.

But there are a lot of concerns about the Bene Gesserit and Paul's youth, and the role of the Kwisatz Haderach. After weighing the pros and the cons, I'm glad that "House Corrino" seemed to try to address some of those issues.

But, I have to tell you. Back in the 1970s when I was a teen, when "Children" came out, we sat around debating and wondering how Jessica could just sit on Caladan while her son, and her daughter, ran the universe.

To us, at the time, Caladan seemed like a place Frank put people when he wanted them to not be involved in the story, and only wanted to use them when he felt like it. I feel that Brian and Kevin take care of some of these concerns in "Winds", having the mother of the Emperor travel around a bit.

Yes, it is strange that Bronso and Paul joined the Jongleur Performing Group, not "Circus", as some would say. I think there could have been a way to add back-story for those two, without adding a "2 teens run away and join the circus" episode.

[SandChigger]

My, my, my. Been busy, haven't we?

Welcome to the new shill! [Edit: Ah, my mistake, you've been lurking around here since May, haven't you?] Are you straight from KJASF.com, or are you some new purebred native suck-up come straight from the bled? ;D

Interesting that you show up here, where they've already DONE Dune long ago and have since moved on to more interesting things like the World Communist Revolution! ;)

Why don't you drop on by over at Jacurutu.com some time. (Or do we already know you there by another name, honey?)

We're ALWAYS interested in fresh meat. Yum. :P

[ErasOmnius]

My, my, my. Been busy, haven't we?

Welcome to the new shill! [Edit: Ah, my mistake, you've been lurking around here since May, haven't you?] Are you straight from KJASF.com, or are you some new purebred native suck-up come straight from the bled? ;D

Interesting that you show up here, where they've already DONE Dune long ago and have since moved on to more interesting things like the World Communist Revolution! ;)

Why don't you drop on by over at Jacurutu.com some time. (Or do we already know you there by another name, honey?)

We're ALWAYS interested in fresh meat. Yum. :P

I am always ready to debate. But we are going to dissect the works and thought motives of Frank Herbert.

*The sudden appearance of the Tleilaxu* in 1969's 'Dune Messiah', although they were not mentioned at all in "Dune".

Scytales' a face Dancer, wait, now he's a Master.

"I like that stud Duncan, let's use him over 20 times."

The women liberators [Honored matres] are so filled with hatred that they have to KILL, KILL, KILL!!!

I'm surprised in such a universe that Brian and Kevin are able to piece together a coherent story-line.

[ErasOmnius]

We're not going to get into debates like, "Is Chobyn's no-chamber, the no-chamber in 'Heretics'?"

We're going to debate, "Is a machine like the wondrous Ixian thought reading machine possible?"

or the famous, "You are an all powerful God Emperor, your people have stagnated for 3500 years, you kill yourself -- and that's good?"

So the Ixians came up with these fantastic city-sized navigating "no-ships" out of the blue?

Look at the Famine Times that are in Africa. Would the people who experience the Famine Times in Dune after Leto II's death really be able to jet around the universe founding new civilizations, coming back to the Old Imperium ONLY 1500 years later kicking everyone's butt.

It's no wonder Brian and Kevin had to put Erasmus and Omnius out there with Obliterators and Enhanced Face Dancers already created; because Frank only allowed 1500 years for the super-gals to come back with their super weapons. [Play the theme song of "Barbarella"]

So, you see, we're going to get down to the nitty-gritty like we used to in 1970s and 1980s. We're going to debate the 5 succeeding books of "Dune", not the wimpy-wimpy, "Why didn't Frank mention Marie Fenring in 'Dune Messiah'?"

[MrFlibble]

*The sudden appearance of the Tleilaxu* in 1969's 'Dune Messiah', although they were not mentioned at all in "Dune".

Sorry, but that is simply not true.

I'm surprised in such a universe that Brian and Kevin are able to piece together a coherent story-line.

Was this attempted sarcasm, or are you really trying to say Frank's books are bad? ???

And, by the way

the concept of the messiah-like "Kwisatz Haderach" was a last year addition. So Frank may have rushed some aspects of the Kwisatz and Paul role.

If you're arguing a point like this, you'd better had some evidence to support your claims. Especially when you say that one of the central plots in Dune was a last-minute addition Frank didn't have time to think out properly.

[SandChigger]

Hey, just a wild hunch, but could a moderator check ErasOmnius' IP address against SandRider's? That bit about debating the books back in the 70s & 80s sounds a lot like stuff the 'Rider has posted elsewhere. This may be a sockpuppet he's using to stir up some controversy.

He's cantankerous that way. And easily bored. ;D