Guild - Modified Infinity Symbol?

[TagDaze]

Hey,

While doing research for my Dune 1979 boardgame remake I ran across the Dune Game Mistakes page. It said:

"The Guild symbol is a modified infinity symbol, not three circles in a line."

Does anyone have a source that says the Guild symbol is, in fact, a modified infinity symbol?

[SandChigger]

I don't remember and can't find anything specific in my file copies of the books. Maybe it's from <i>The Dune Encyclopedia</i>?

There's this from <i>Heretics</i>:

As his lighter moved in to dock, Teg looked out a port and saw the gigantic Ixian symbol <b>within the Guild cartouche</b> on the Transport's dark side.  This was a ship the Guild had converted to Ixian mechanism, substituting machines for the traditional navigator.  There would be Ixian technicians aboard to service the equipment.  A genuine Guild navigator would be there, too.  The Guild had never quite learned to trust a machine even while they paraded these converted Transports as a message to Tleilaxu and Rakians.

If I find anything later, I'll post it here. :(

[TagDaze]

A cartouche... interesting find. Should at least give a hint as to what the symbol should look like. Thanks. I really need thoughts, people. Anything is appreciated.

[DragoFire]

From what I've read and seem, it would make sense to have the three circles (planets) with the interceting line (line of travel).

I think it was writen that the Guild Nav's used three navigation points to make a successful "fold", where one was always Arrakis and the other two were their current location and their destrantion.

[Beonid]

The three circles on a line is from Emperor, I'm pretty sure. However, I don't think I've heard anything to support the modified infinity symbol either.

[SandChigger]

From what I've read and seem, it would make sense to have the three circles (planets) with the interceting line (line of travel).

I think it was writen that the Guild Nav's used three navigation points to make a successful "fold", where one was always Arrakis and the other two were their current location and their destrantion.

Um...I don't suppose you'd have a reference for that last bit, would you? I'm fairly certain there's NOTHING like that in any of Frank Herbert's books.

Think about it: there's nothing astronomically (or astronavigationally?) special about Arrakis that would require it be the reference point of every single foldspace flight. That simply doesn't make sense.

(Is it from a game, maybe?)

[MrFlibble]

I also don't remember anything about the three-point fold in the books... Perhaps there's something in Dune Encyclopedia?

[SandChigger]

Hmmm.

Methinks rather than <i>ex libris</i> it smells more like a case of <i>ex recto</i>....

[Beonid]

Did a word search for 'spacing guild' on the Dune Encyclopaedia pdf, but didn't come up with anything to do with its symbol. Looking through a hard copy would probably be better, although I don't think anyone would find much.

[TagDaze]

Your Dune Encyclopedia PDF is searchable? Oh wow.

My designer/artist and I have been discussing this. We decided to go our own direction, but not stray too far from established ideas, as well as use what FH's books tell us. We got this:

Note that we came up with the three points before the folding discussion here. Pure coincidence I tells ya!

Orange is the side's color in the game, so that's mandatory. To provide good visibility and to represent the spice, we made the logo itself blue. Could you see the Guild, being basically a company, using this, or do you have a different idea of what the Guild logo should look like?

[Tezcatlipoca]

I always envisioned the Spacing Guild's logo to be more like this, and I'd like to think that FH did as well:

[SandChigger]

Huh.

I don't get it.

Sure, the Guild is a monopoly and therefore evil and they charge an arm and a leg, but they actually get you where you're going, no?

If Microsoft were the Guild, you'd be as likely as not to come out of foldspace halfway up Norma Cenva's black hole. Or the Heighliner's engines and suspensors would fail and you'd fall out of orbit. Or get creamed into a thin oily layer around the walls of your cabin when they forgot to compensate for inertia differentials.

Killjoy was here! ;)

[TagDaze]

I can see that happening. "Windows Starbuck has encountered an error in the Ixian Spacefold Drive. To protect the Operating System, the program has been shut down." A moment later the heighliner would reappear and be incinerated in the center of Alpha Herculis.

[Anathema]

From what I've read and seem, it would make sense to have the three circles (planets) with the interceting line (line of travel).

I think it was writen that the Guild Nav's used three navigation points to make a successful "fold", where one was always Arrakis and the other two were their current location and their destrantion.

That sounds more like Stargate. If anything like that was in the Dune books it would at least have rung a bell.

I vaguely remembered the scene SandChigger mentioned, but nothing else.

After a quick google search I found this. A bit much?

[Beonid]

Check the wikipedia article (sorry, can't link to it, I managed to finally get the first shower tonight), its got the symbol from Emperor: Battle for Dune - that's probably where someone got the three circles on a line from (or it could be a rip-off of the original symbol, I really don't know).

Sorry if my sentence structure is almost impossible to understand - I'm quite tired right now.

[Anathema]

Check the wikipedia article (sorry' date=' can't link to it, I managed to finally get the first shower tonight), its got the symbol from Emperor: Battle for Dune - that's probably where someone got the three circles on a line from (or it could be a rip-off of the original symbol, I really don't know).[/quote']

Emperor uses an artistic version of the Guild logo in Lynch' film.

I just read the article in the OP from begin to end, and I have some comments.

    * The Ixians symbol is a purple and gold helix, not the weird circuit-thing. Also, Ix is the PLANET owned by House VERNIUS.

....

# The whole "War of Assassins" would never happen anyway. The leaders of the Houses are all in a theoretical line to the Golden Lion Throne (like the US government with its President-Vice President-etc.). I don't know who is "first". However, I do know that House Vernius is something like 87th in line. I also know that the Atreides are substantially higher than Vernius, although I do not know the specifics.

.....

The animosity between the Atreides and Harkonnen is seen in the games. It is, however, not dramatic enough. The hatred between the two runs all the way back to the Butlerian Jihad. During the Battle of Corrin, Abulurd Harkonnen grew cowardly and retreated from a crucial bridge. It was only through the Atreides that that bridge was held, and the thinking machines, whom had enslaved humans for centuries, were defeated. Atreides (who are, by the way, descended from the Greek hero Atreus. Check a mythology chart-its there! Agamemnon is, in fact, in the Atreides line. Anyway.) accused the Harkonnen of cowardice and almost causing more years of suffering, whilst the Harkonnen accused the Atreides of exaggerating and lying to gain more glory. And so it began...

This is from the prequels. 'nuff said.

Mentats do possess the purple lips seen in the games, which results from sapho juice. The Ordos Mentat, however, does not have these stains. This juice is necessary for a Mentat to function as human computers, since mechanical computers are banned by the Great Convention.

There's a bit about sapho juice in the Dune appendix, I believe. It mentions that it can increase a mentat's abilities, not that they're a requirement.

Some of the stuff criticized in the article originate from the Lynch thing, and one thing (house Ordos) from the Dune Encyclopedia I believe.

[Caid Ivik]

I guess Herbert would see a reason why should he define symbols and crests in books he would do so...in fact there would be no such debate if we hadn't movies and games inspired by the original text (while new prequels are on the same level as any other spinoff); if I imagined Guild's symbol to be a turtle and read the books with this idea, would you say I read it in a "bad" way?

[SandChigger]

...if I imagined Guild's symbol to be a turtle and read the books with this idea, would you say I read it in a "bad" way?

Nah. I'd just say that you're obviously <b>IN a bad way!</b> ;D

[TagDaze]

Actually, the accusation of cowardice starting the kanly was mentioned in the first novel. That has already been established.

Alright peeps, as soon as my artist shows up with the crest for the Fremen, the board is complete. I will then take pictures and put them up in this thread.

[Anathema]

Actually, the accusation of cowardice starting the kanly was mentioned in the first novel. That has already been established.

It is, but not more. It doesn't mention people called Vorian or Abulurd and there's nothing in the original novel that suggests that the BJ was a physical, drawn out war between humans and machine masters.

[TagDaze]

Truth.

By the way, I still need an artist who can make me portraits from Dune characters. Doesn't need to be super realistic, as long as it's in one style. Any ideas? DevianTART peeps seem to either suck, don't have time or need to be paid.

[SandChigger]

It is, but not more. It doesn't mention people called Vorian or Abulurd and there's nothing in the original novel that suggests that the BJ was a physical, drawn out war between humans and machine masters.

Partial truth:

VLADIMIR HARKONNEN (10,110-10,193)

Commonly referred to as Baron Harkonnen, his title is officially Siridar (planetary governor) Baron. Vladimir Harkonnen is the direct-line male descendant of the Bashar <b>Abulurd Harkonnen</b> who was banished for cowardice after the Battle of Corrin.

There is no mention of Vorian, or of his father Agamemnon (or of any of the other "Titans" either, for that matter), of Xavier Harkonnen or Serena Butler, or of the Cogitors, etc etc etc.

The Legends of Dune books are among the most intellectually uninspired science-fantasy fan fiction written within the last few decades.

[whohaw15]

***Spoilers****i think i should mention that a considerable time had passed between the buterlian jihad and paul becoming emperor so really the only ones that might know what really happened would have been the bene gesserit and they wouldnt be talking about it. seeing as they used machines for their breeding. also im not done yet but i hope they finish up the bit about omnious escaping during the final battle on secondus.

[SandChigger]

The Bene Gesserit used machines...er, they used computers, dammit, to keep the RECORDS and DATA of their breeding program.

I assume that's what you meant there.

They most certainly did NOT use machines in the actual breeding process, though. (The OCB prohibitions forbade artificial insemination as well.)

At least not until they learned how to make their own "tanks" from the Bene Tleilax.

[MrFlibble]

Well, the "tanks" were used for creation of gholas and other Tleilaxu stuff, and probably not for any kind of traditional breeding anyway.