The potential use of tanks in the Duniverse

[Edric O]

After seven years, let the Great Tank Debate begin anew!

Truly ancient forum members - those of us who have been around for over 7 years - may remember the Arrakis2000 project. It was an ambitious attempt to build our own Dune game, back in the time between Dune2000 and Emperor. One of the crucial questions that came up over and over again was whether the game should include tanks or whether it should be overwhelmingly based on infantry and hand-to-hand combat with only a few support vehicles thrown in. This was "The Great Tank Debate," and most old timers remember it mostly as an argument between myself (pro-tanks) and Shaddam_Corrino (anti-tanks). Many other people got involved, though. Shaddam was on the development team and I was not, so in a sense I was trying to interfere with his game... I was young, foolish and often rude back then, but I still think I had a good case for the inclusion of tanks in the game. :)

In any case, Arrakis2000 never got finished, and in retrospect the Great Tank Debate wasn't all that great - these days we have lots of topics in PRP that are much longer, more heated and more serious than the tank debate - but it was very large and important by the standards of FED2k in the year 2000 and early 2001 when it took place.

So, in honour of the old tank debate and its formative influence on FED2k, and in celebration of the 10th year of this website's existence, I hereby open The Second Tank Debate.

This will not be a debate about a game, but about the Duniverse as such. It is clear that tanks were not used in Frank Herbert's Duniverse, though artillery was mentioned. The question is, would tanks or other heavy assault vehicles be suitable in the Duniverse in general or on Arrakis in particular? They didn't seem to be used by any of the Houses or factions, but could they have been used if someone had the idea to do so?

A lot depends on the nature of shields. If I'm not mistaken, they absorb the kinetic energy of projectiles and turn it into heat. Does that mean that a shield hit with sufficient force could heat up to such a level that it killed the person wearing it? If so, heavy projectiles might have some use after all.

Discuss.

[Mihail]

About tanks -

I think that on Arrakis particularly tanks would be mostly of no use. If I'm not mistaken, then large mechanical machines on the sand(like harvesters) attract worms fast enough. So it would probably be an infantry war without shields(since shields on open sand are even worse). On rocky ground, though, I bet you could get away with shields and tanks, especially while assaulting a base of some sort.

As for the Duniverse in general, it depends on the battlefield and on pure logistics. I don't think many Minor Houses would have the funds to buy each of their troops a personal shield, so artillery and tanks would play a respectable if not large role in deciding the outcome of a war between, say, two Minor Houses. The Great Houses, though, have more funds and a larger number of troops, so it would probably be mostly infantry and hand-to-hand combat.

[Dunenewt]

I'd say things similar to the Ordos Laser Tank/APC would be used, based around the groundcar concept mentioned in Dune.  Is it ever mentioned how expensive shields are?

[MrFlibble]

Is it ever mentioned how expensive shields are?

I think obtaining a technology that is no more in use would be more expensive. Shields were, after all, standard military issue equipment. Tanks, on the contrary, were quite outdated and most probably not mass-produced anymore. Remember that the artillery used by the Harkonnens was an unexpected surprise. I guess only the rich Houses like the Baron's could afford such weapons.

Let's say shields, like any piece of modern weaponry or other military equipment today, are not cheap, but much more affordable than obsolete technology like tanks.

I'd say things similar to the Ordos Laser Tank/APC would be used, based around the groundcar concept mentioned in Dune.

Don't forget that the Holtzmann generators, at least those used in shields, draw the worms into a "killing frenzy". I think using Ordos-like stuff would be more of a suicide than sending a sandcrawler without carryall support into deep desert.

[Dunenewt]

I didn't necessarily mean on Arrakis itself, I was thinking about the wider Duniverse.

[MrFlibble]

Ordos Laser Tanks like they are would only function if they lowered their shields when firing lasers. However, it seems to me that in Duniverse, aircrafts ('thopters) were much more preferable than ground vehicles, perhaps because of greater maneuverability.

[Dunenewt]

Yes, the idea of a shielded laser tank is very odd indeed.  The shield could easily be calibrated to let the laser pass through, but if someone else fired a las-gun, then boom.  I meant the general design of the laser tank, in that it more closely resembles what I thought a groundcar would look like if it was adapted for military use.  But then again, perhaps groundcars are more similar to ekroplanes, and use the Wing In Ground effect to move quickly.  I'm not sure.  On second thought this would be more likely, and the Ordos APC and Laser tanks would just suspensors to hover, as they can hover when stationary.

[TMA_1]

They (tanks) got swallowed up long ago in the many evolutionary changes of the battle field. A primitive advancement of the ancient cavalry.

[Dunenewt]

The modern tank is by no means an advancement of ancient cavalry.  Rather cavalry, catapults, siege weapons, and many more all rolled into one.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

I would have to agree with you TMA. The tank's role is becoming less and less important, viewing the wars since WW2. Still the wars we see today are against an enemy hidden among civilians.

I guess when it comes to large scale conflict between to large, equal powers(technological, economical and military), you cannot predict how it would be, since we haven't seen this since the second world war.(this will be a matter of opinion of course, I guess there have been some cases, but not a large-scale war)

Still I believe that in such a distant future, if there were to be any tanks, they would probably be flying and not hovering.

[Edric O]

I really can't imagine any kind of modern or futuristic ground war between evenly-matched armies without either tanks or a tank-equivalent (which is to say a heavily armoured vehicle equipped for going over a multitude of terrains and armed with one large gun and a few smaller auxiliary ones). The only way to eliminate the need for heavily armoured ground vehicles is to focus on aircraft instead.

In the Duniverse, there is a large difference between warfare on Arrakis and warfare elsewhere, because on Arrakis the worms make it unwise to use shields. Nevertheless, I think some kind of tanks or tank-equivalents could be used both on and off Arrakis. The reason why we do not see them in the Dune novels is because the purpose of the tank is to fight large-scale conventional battles, and we really don't see a whole lot of that in FH's writing.

On Arrakis, tanks could not be used in the open desert, but they would be useful behind the Shield Wall or on rocky terrain. The problem is that there are no enemies against whom it would be useful to employ tanks; all the cities are always held by a single power, and the enemies of that power can only use guerilla tactics.

Things may be different in the rest of the Duniverse. Great Houses, as Clemenza pointed out, probably had the funds to equip all of their soldiers with personal shields, greatly reducing the effectiveness of heavy firepower. But more importantly, they controlled entire planets, so presumably all the conflicts they had to fight were in space, not on the ground.

Minor Houses would have more use for tanks, because they are in a position to fight ground wars and because they would probably not be able to shield whole armies. But note that tanks could even be useful against shielded infantry: They could use high explosive projectiles to blow craters in the ground, throw soldiers in the air, and raise large amounts of dust to obscure the battlefield. They could also presumably run over infantry - it is mentioned in the novels that a sufficient mass falling on you would overwhelm your shield and crush you.

[Dunenewt]

That's quite true, which is why I could imagine the Buzzsaw being used in the Duniverse, by the Harkonnens or Moritani of course.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

I think two houses fighting against each other on separate planets would be more likely to use aircrafts, since tanks would require a foothold on the enemy planet, where they could be transported to. Tanks would have to be deployed on the battlefield, which could be quite dangerous due to vulnerability to air attacks while being transported.

Aircrafts are more easily used here, and could be put into fight as soon as they exit a heighliner.

Another issue, depending on the planet of course, would be the degree of urban warfare. If your main objective is to capture the planet whole, wouldn't the use of lighter ground vehicles and infantry be better?

Still, if everyone else focus on air defence, tanks would be good idea ;)

[Tezcatlipoca]

My thoughts on the subject (Scroll down for a Yes/No answer)

Having also created a game based on the Dune universe, I had to come to grips with the "tank" issue. I eventually put it in, although my interpretation was both a bit more lenient and a bit more restrictive than I'll outline here.

Also note that some of this has been said in the thread already, but I re-include here for completeness, and do not quote the individuals that first mention it in the thread, since I would rather leave the all out, and mention that they could be in here, than forget one while including others.

-My definition of Tanks

I consider tanks to be any large ground based vehicle that is heavily armored. This may or may not include energy shields, but most certainly does include thick enough armor to repel most modern small arms, creating a safe mobile barrier against such light ranged attacks for the people inside. Tanks may or may not include a gun, but frequently will since you

[gunner154]

I cannot imagine armies moving across land from rock to rock across large expanses of desert. There is absolutely no cover, making it very easy for air support to take out the land groups. Transportation would almost definitely not be by land, and getting up close, infantry tend to have the better advantage. I'm more for infantry and aircraft.

As for fights off Arrakis, they wouldn't be much different from conventional warfare today. They would model more after WW2, unless someone decides to play terrorist and hide among a large number of civilians (which I'm sure most of the Houses wouldn't really care for anyway and just blast everybody to pieces. Just no atomics please, thank you). This necessitates tanks because of the meat they represent on the battlefield.

[MrFlibble]

unless someone decides to play terrorist and hide among a large number of civilians (which I'm sure most of the Houses wouldn't really care for anyway and just blast everybody to pieces. Just no atomics please, thank you).

No no no. The concept of the War of Assassins, remember? Blasting away innocent civilians is explicitly prohibited by the Great Convention the same way the use of atomics is.

[gunner154]

Point taken.

[TMA_1]

What is cavalry used for? What would the cavalry's analogue be in the Duniverse? You have to think beyond conventional 20th century large scale warfare. From the sound of the books, there is relatively little use of tanks among the wealthiest houses of the landsdraad.

[Egeides]

Shielded bike and knight :P

[TMA_1]

haha, it would probably work too, egeides.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

I wounder what would happen if you shielded a worm

[Wolf]

I have some points for both sides, actually. Though we really have no way of discerning what future technologies would render what military disciplines infeasible (sp?), to me it makes sense that the question of tanks in the Duniverse is identical to the question of tanks now, in our real universe. The question is rapidly being posed to military thinkers whether or not the Main Battle Tank is a logical military investment. The jobs it currently does can be done (sometimes better, sometimes more cheaply) by other military resources. Also, in the modern world, technology has rendered the tank quite vulnerable where it otherwise was not. However, let's look at the situation:

1. Armor has a specific role in a Combined-Arms Strategy.

Armor has long range, can (or should be able to) knock out most other land vehicles, including tanks, and can support Infantry in tasks that they might otherwise be unable to accomplish. Take the desert warfare in Tobruk, El Alamein and Tunisia from World War II: Armor spearheaded Infantry assault columns into enemy lines, protecting them until they could attack en masse for maximum effect. In an urban setting, tanks become vulnerable to Infantry where the opposite was true in an open setting. In desert warfare, the range of armor becomes paramount because of the relatively-clear Line of Sight provided. However, desert warfare underscores Armor's invariable weakness (which is less true in an urban environment), which is...

2. Armor is extremely vulnerable to Close-Air Support.

Close-Air Support, in the form of helicopter/ornithopter gunships is extremely effective at destroying or otherwise neutralizing enemy armor. Unless tanks can be protected under an anti-aircraft blanket, or unless air superiority can be previously obtained, the usefulness of tanks in an overall Combined-Arms Strategy deceases substantially. They are the first targets of enemy (so-called, obviously) "tank-killing" and attacker aircraft. But...

3. "Armor" refers to more than just "Tanks."

An M1A1 might be a poor investment in the Duniverse, which has quite effective infantry in urban warfare-settings, and quite effective Close-Air Support capabilities in the open. However, Infantry, if they have to walk everywhere, become far less valuable without their armored cousins. For Dune, we would more likely see the perfection of the Mechanized Infantry Division. Armored fighting vehicles, which serve to rapidly deploy infantry and support them directly in combat, are necessary for Infantry to operate at maximum effectiveness. An AFV can carry a gun (or even missles) to take on Armor its-size or heavier, and can transport the Infantry required to protect it. Other armored vehicles can be outfitted with Surface-to-Air Missiles and Rapid-Firing Artillery... the Patriot Missile Platform, the MLRS and the PzH 2000 are prime examples of extremely effective armored vehicles excelling at something other than the Main Battle Tank role. Respectively, these vehicles help to, 1. support infantry vis-a-vis artillery, 2. support infantry and other armor by helping to maintain an anti-aircraft blanket, and 3. transport and support infantry in combat.

4. Conclusions

Will there be "tanks" in the Duniverse? Maybe not the sexy, big-gun tanks build for tank-on-tank action, but Armored Fighting  Vehicles certainly have a place. Fundamentally, infantry transported and supported by armored combat vehicles are more effective than infantry without them, because they can either outmaneuver or outgun their vehicle-less brothers. Also, the armored vehicle is a stable platform form which to mount anti-aircraft and artillery weapons, which also increase the efficacy of Infantry as well as the battlefield longevity of other Armored Vehicles. Unsupported infantry are mincemeat. Period.

[gunner154]

You make me think that you're in the army.

[Wolf]

Nope, worse. University student. But if it makes you feel better, a lot of my good friends are in the army/will be once they graduate ROTC. Some of them did armor, so I got to hear about their thoughts, feelings and concerns on the subject.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Quite similar to some of the points I was getting at Wolf. Nice to see I'm not alone ;)