Dune renaissance?

[Andrew]

Aren't all those humans vs robots movies a bit cliche? The Terminator did this plot justice enough IMHO.

But it wasn't in space. And Terminator included time travel which always messes things up.

[MrFlibble]

But it wasn't in space.

Fir that, there's SW Ep.1-3's Trade Federation. Their droids are clumsy and serve mostly for comic relief, but they're none the less robots.

[Dunenewt]

In the Butlerian Jihad they're thinking machines, not robots...that's my attempt at justifying what Andrew said.

[gunner154]

Were robots in The Terminator that stupid, compared to the thinking machines we're familiar with?

I would have preferred to think of The Matrix series, instead of The Terminator, as an example.

[Dunenewt]

In comparison with the Thinking Machines, the Terminator robots were very stupid.

Surely Battlestar Galactica would be a better comparison?

[MrFlibble]

Surely Battlestar Galactica would be a better comparison?

I haven't seen it :P In any case, I'm not looking forward to a prequel-based movie. Or, to be honest, to any Dune-based movie at all.

The more time passes, the more I like Lynch's Dune.

It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

The thinking machines in BSG are very similar to the new face dancers. I do not quite remember how much was written about them in Chapterhouse, but one could guess KJA and BH copied some aspects of them from BSG.

[Egeides]

The thinking machines in BSG are very similar to the new face dancers.

In which way? (I haven't read all that; I don't know what are "the new face dancers" either but interesting..)

[Emperor Harkonnen]

The thinking machines in BSG possess human bodies, which the humans cannot detect are machines. It is the same in Dune, at first they cannot detect whether they are face dancers or not. Only when they are dead, they show their true nature.

In addition many of the thinking machines doesn't even realize that they are non-human. I get the impression that some face dancers also get carried away, forgetting who they really are.

[Dunenewt]

Huh?  I thought the thinking machines in Battlestar Galactica were obvious?  Weren't they called Zylons or something similar?

[Emperor Harkonnen]

Yes their ships were, but not the individuals. In BSG there are lots of individual machines, which have the appearances of humans. These are the machines in control, there are also other machines which are spaceships. Those are mixtures between biological and mechanical entities.

[MrFlibble]

The thinking machines in BSG possess human bodies, which the humans cannot detect are machines. It is the same in Dune, at first they cannot detect whether they are face dancers or not. Only when they are dead, they show their true nature.

In addition many of the thinking machines doesn't even realize that they are non-human. I get the impression that some face dancers also get carried away, forgetting who they really are.

The theme of human-like machines and the possibility of androids possessing humanity is widespread in sci-fi works. I think Blade Runner/Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep goes here as well.

And yes, the Face Dancers in Heretics were made so close to perfection they could really become the people they were supposed to impersonate.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

I am aware that this idea is widespread. But please read what I said in this post, and you probably see the similarities between the thinking machines in BSG and the new face dancers in Dune:

The thinking machines in BSG possess human bodies, which the humans cannot detect are machines. It is the same in Dune, at first they cannot detect whether they are face dancers or not. Only when they are dead, they show their true nature.

In addition many of the thinking machines doesn't even realize that they are non-human. I get the impression that some face dancers also get carried away, forgetting who they really are.

[MrFlibble]

Well, some androids in Philip Dick's novel also don't realize they're not human. What's wrong with that?

Face Dancers were created specifically to mimic other people with the potential to replace them. I don't know about BSG androids/thinking machines, but the androids in Dick's novel were created as laborers, if memory serves well.

EDIT: I'll make myself clear. Rachel from Dick's novel thought she was human, not an android. The Face Dancer who replaced High Priest Tuek in Heretics actually became High Priest Tuek, inheriting all his memories and acting like the real one would do. I think the similarity between the two cases is quite vague. However, I repeat that I am not familiar with the BSG thinking machine concepts, so maybe you're right and I'm not.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

I do not see the relevance with your example, other than this one similarity.

The thinking machines in BSG are infiltrating humans, just like the face dancers. Please watch the show, and you will see what I mean.

So to sum up, we got three similarities, which are quite specific:

1. They infiltrate humans

2. They are sometimes not aware that they acctually are machines/face dancers

3. Their true nature cannot be detected by humans

This is not a general idea found in many sci-fi stories!

[Dunenewt]

This is what the Cylons look like...not human at all!

[gunner154]

The new face dancers became the people they impersonated, often even forgetting that they're face dancers altogether.

If my memory serves me well.

[MrFlibble]

Exactly. They could not be reverted back to Face Dancer state, and did not respond to the Masters' whistling command language.

This is not a general idea found in many sci-fi stories!

I have partially misunderstood your post, as I paid more attention to the whole "humanity" part (humans questioning their humanity, androids willing to obtain it), which is a general problem of almost any discussion involving the creation of artificial intelligence, but talking about robots looking like humans that are used to infiltrate human societies is relevant to my first example with the Terminator, which is exactly such kind of robot.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

quit dragging out specific points in my post, and see them as a whole instead.  >:(

And here is a picture of the cylons in control in BSG:

Those in the background are the soldiers, and if you have watched the series you know that the human-like machines are those in control.

[Dunenewt]

Whaaaaat?  Have a look at my thread, I posted what they look like, I've no idea what you posted.

[Andrew]

There is no picture in your post emp harkonnen.

The new BSG series has human like cyclons.

And they are similar in the sense that it is possible for a cylon/face dancer to actually believe they are human.

[Dunenewt]

There is a picture in his post, it just takes absolutely ages to load.

I haven't seen the new series.  What was wrong with the robotic cylons then?  Does it mention what happened to them?  Or is it like the Klingons in Star Trek, how they changed from The Original Series to The Next Generation.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

the robots are still there, but they are soldiers. the enemy is known through the humanlike-machines .

To me it seems like you have seen an entirely different program... is it BSG from the 70's you meant?

[Dunenewt]

Yeah, I haven't seen the new one.

[Andrew]

You should definitely watch the new one. One of the best scifi in years.

Watch the miniseries and then the first season and you should be very impressed.