Gun Control or Social Issues?

[Dude_Doc]

Does anybody have views in the light of recent events - the Virginia Tech shootings? Should gun-laws be strenghted or do you think these things happen because of social issues?

[Tatar Khan]

It is actually both. The gun control should be strengthened to prevent weapons from being easily accessible to any student. However it is a social issue. The problem here I see was lack of proper values and lack of parent and child understanding. From the descriptions of the killer's life it is clear that he was in some sort of depression and while the people tried to get him some help they could not force him to get it. The problem is that why did not his parents caught on about the problem early on.

[Andrew]

Guns don't kill people, bullets do.

The virginia tech gun was legally purchased, along with a school shooting last spring in Canada that killed one. Didn't the columbine kids legally purchase guns (or at least stole gun from parents, which many others do)?

If someone wants to shoot or kill others, laws will not stop them. If guns magically disappeared, people would use knives or explosives.

People will argue gun laws should be lax, or at least so that people can carry guns to protect themselves from crazy people with guns. Apparently a Virginia tech shooter last fall was stopped by students who had guns who were not supposed to according to VT school law.

Laws should be made to keep guns from people who want to kill/harm others, but so that law abiding citizens can have them. But being able to tell who is crazy or not is not always simple. Someone could be normal and *snap* and harm someone else.

I'm not a pro gun person, since I come from Canada and don't have one of my own, and we aren't a society bent on having guns all over the place. I can only imagine if everyone carried guns and someone noticed someone concealing a gun would lead to panic.

[Tatar Khan]

If someone wants to shoot or kill others, laws will not stop them. If guns magically disappeared, people would use knives or explosives.

I am sure the guy would not be able to kill of 30 people using a knife before the police would have stopped him. Sure that the people with guns can stop some shooters but if there is no gun than there is no shooter to stop.

[Andrew]

Even if the person knew karate etc and had a good weapon?

I'll agree that guns make it easy to kill people. A gun in each hand with gun training and a crowd of people make easy kills. I hear planes also are good at killing massive amounts of people (yet they are safer than cars).

Or getting in a vehicle and running people down at a flea market or wherever those old people who shouldn't be driving always end up running people over.

I am for less guns. :)

Guns kill. Less guns should mean less people killed by guns.

[Megashrap]

For me the media played a huge damaging role. I mean when I clicked on MSN homepage and saw that they posted the pic of him aiming a few glocks at me, that was truly disturbing. They pretty much made him out to be some sort of poster child martyr for the mentally ill. As it was said already that this will happen again, then this will give those who plan such a damn thing even more initiative to go through with it. Yeah, people may want the right to know more about him, but for a whole week straight on the front pages of most major sites? That was just sad at the most highest level.

[Tatar Khan]

For me the media played a huge damaging role. I mean when I clicked on MSN homepage and saw that they posted the pic of him aiming a few glocks at me, that was truly disturbing. They pretty much made him out to be some sort of poster child martyr for the mentally ill. As it was said already that this will happen again, then this will give those who plan such a damn thing even more initiative to go through with it. Yeah, people may want the right to know more about him, but for a whole week straight on the front pages of most major sites? That was just sad at the most highest level.

No what was sad was when Anna Nicole Smith died and CNN went without commercials for more than an hour and for two weeks no media source could shut up about it.

[Egeides]

I think that it's the wrong angle here. The problem is not the guns, it's social.

Plus, to stop them from getting guns I guess you'd need a very serious blockage.

[Andrew]

I'd agree, Anna Nicole was stupid. Just shows that the media is stupid and homogeneous. Good thing only a couple corporations own most of the media in USA. That way all the news can be the same no matter where you go.

And Cho proved that if you want to get a lot of attention, shoot up a school and the media will feed off it for weeks.

Shall we take bets how long until a rich, good looking white girl goes missing and the media jumps on it?

[Megashrap]

And Cho proved that if you want to get a lot of attention, shoot up a school and the media will feed off it for weeks.

Shall we take bets how long until a rich, good looking white girl goes missing and the media jumps on it?

My bet will be more towards the fact that this very thing will happen sooner than people think.

[Lord J]

If someone wants to shoot or kill others, laws will not stop them. If guns magically disappeared, people would use knives or explosives.

I tend to agree.  There is a Klingon saying; "There are always weapons."

The problem is psychological and sociological in nature; people come to believe that violence is the only solution to their personal problems.  They seperate themselves from other humans, much like the Baron Harkonnen in Dune, who characterizes others as "rabbits" and himself as the "carnivore."  Then, April comes along and people just go bat%&$@ (look throughout history at violent occurences in the month of April: Oklahoma City bombing, Waco, Columbine, all happened in the month of April).  Also, the involvment of a free media cannot be overlooked.  Did anyone notice the increase in threats against colleges after the VT massacre?  Even my campus has been closed down for the day because of bomb threats.

[Andrew]

Bomb threats are just a simple way to get classes off for the day. They did this in high school a lot many years ago.

EDIT:

Actually they would not get the day off, classes would resume as normal. The cops would just be called to try and figure out who called it in. Stupid kids.

[Megashrap]

As far as guns are concerned regarding the topic here, guns aren't going anywhere here in America. So that part of this topic should be considered null and void. It's a crude awakening to those that think it's going to or should be. The NRA and supply and demand alone takes care of that. And for anyone that thinks that's foolish thinking, well take a stroll in any Wal-Mart were I could purchase on any day 24/7 a high powered rifle,shotguns,scopes and all the ammo I need. And that is just the 'legit,family oriented stores'. Pawn shops however offer ten times the gun and ammo selections

(again a legit business here).

I look at the gun issue sort of like the tobacco companies. You can tax the shit out of it, you may eliminate a few select types of guns, but they WILL remain regardless.

Here's one good example of what I mean by obtaining extreme high caliber guns. This gun a 45-70 which I own one myself for wild hog hunting when it is in season.

This gun may as well be a 50 caliber elephant gun. the ammo for thing is massive.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4665647#long_descr

Product Information

Category: Firearm/Gun

Type: Rifle

Action: Lever

Manufacturer: Marlin Firearms

Caliber/Gauge: 45-70

Model: 1895XLR

Finish: Stainless

Stock or Grips: Laminate Wood

Barrel Length: 24

Overall Length: 42.5

Weight: 7.5

Capacity: 4+1

Sights: Adjustable Rifle

Safety Features: Hammer Block Safety

Drilled & Tapped: Yes

Rate-of-Twist: 1-in-20

Additional Feature 1: Ballard rifling

Additional Feature 2: 4-shot tubular magazine

Additional Feature 3: Lever action; side ejection; solid top receiver

This was just at a Wal-Mart.

[erjin999]

The NRA and supply and demand alone takes care of that.

Exactly. Can you explain to me why a normal civilised society has this right to carry life taking weapons around ? Ok, maybe you cant carry them around, but why be allowed to buy them ? Why have guns at all ?

Remember this comes from a brit where guns are not allowed outside special clubs (I think there are, at least :)) and the police/military...oh, and drugs dealers...oh, and rappers....but not anyone else.

[Andrew]

You forgot hunters. Especially those hunters that need machine guns to mow down deer.

[Dante]

Guns kill. Less guns should mean less people killed by guns.

Simple logic, but there you have it. Whether the root of the matter is social, psychological, political or whatever, take away the guns and lethality will drop. Knives are all well and good, but they are much easier to run away from. Whether this is a realistic expectation or not isn't really a consideration, because that's how it is.

Now if you were actually trying to solve the 'problem' of such killings (and I would cite the very fact that such occurances have become so common as to be refered to in the plural as a sign of a fundemental error somewhere) then it would probably be wiser to just hand out flak jackets to students and bulletproof all public buildings. After all, if people refuse to let go of their firearms then gods forbid we actually force them. They might shoot us.

[Egeides]

Guns kill. Less guns should mean less people killed by guns.

It looks like the sensationalist part of the problem. A bit like the RIAA wanting to ban a whole technological medium (Napster, P2P) or Bush going for a war against a political medium (terror). It ends up bringing small effects while demanding heavy duty method.

The real tricky question to me: What brought that over time?

Otherwise, it might grow stronger as it did in the past and overcome the new barriers. There's a whole range from hard power to soft power.

[Megashrap]

Simple logic, but there you have it. Whether the root of the matter is social, psychological, political or whatever, take away the guns and lethality will drop.

That may sound simple enough, but that would only happen if the Constitution were altered towards guns being taken away, it's NOT going to happen. If it did you would see The Chaos Theory played out before your eyes on a grand scale. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not pro-gun for the world like handing out food for all. It takes the mindset of a person to actually do something with a gun, the gun doesn't think for itself. I just tend to lean toward a social problem rather than an object that is capable of killing.

Another example of it more of a social problem is, here a mentally challenged person cannot obtain a firearm. Well, how many of these types of people hell bent on killing someone do you think go into a gun store and say,"Hey, I would like that pistol please...Oh by the way I'm mentally ill".

[Dante]

That may sound simple enough, but that would only happen if the Constitution were altered towards guns being taken away, it's NOT going to happen. If it did you would see The Chaos Theory played out before your eyes on a grand scale.

Whether this is a realistic expectation or not isn't really a consideration, because that's how it is.

It's a social problem in that people in society want guns, sure. Society doesn't kill people, society just provides the weaponry. And it is weaponry that kills people, not violent movies or video games.

[Khan]

Another example of it more of a social problem is, here a mentally challenged person cannot obtain a firearm. Well, how many of these types of people hell bent on killing someone do you think go into a gun store and say,"Hey, I would like that pistol please...Oh by the way I'm mentally ill".

But if they couldn't buy guns in the first place there wouldn't be a problem would there? Sure they could buy a knife or build a bomb but it makes the killing far less easy.

[nemafakei]

Let's say the guns magically pop out of existence, the fact that society regularly produces people who are so desperate that they would be prepared to go on a killing spree is pretty shocking.

First, it's an indictment of the social alienation that makes live miserable. We all deal with it differently, but the fact remains that modern society isolates us, legally, economically, socially.

But not everyone reaches for the armaments when things get rough, and the amount of variation across cultures is significant. It's just that in societies where violence is an acceptable part of society - a nation that uses force of arms to get its way, a state that uses heavy-handed methods on its own population, right down to mundane things like the glorification and institutionalisation of violent sports - it's just asking for individuals to follow suit.

Things like films and computer games are a big deviation from this. They're far more a reflection than a shaper. The whole reality vs fiction barrier is more than sufficient to ensure most of us here don't go around trying to command armies to conquer deserts for precious resources.

Now... guns. In a violent society, guns are clearly a liability, exacerbating the problem. Mutual armament is as likely to lead to escalation as it is deterrence, and those who are too poor (or too conscientious) to own a gun lose out.

[Megashrap]

Let's say the guns magically pop out of existence, the fact that society regularly produces people who are so desperate that they would be prepared to go on a killing spree is pretty shocking.

I can agree with that.

Speaking for myself, and my life experiences here and abroad growing up as an Army brat, I've learned...

1. People are frickin animals! And not just here in America, Not all but way more than most will want to admit.

2. Nothing is going to eliminate guns, here or worldwide.

3. Any type of gun law here is ONLY going to affect the ones that are law-abiding.

It's easy to look at Americans and think,"well if they would would just do away with guns....". It still doesn't solve the fact that there are lunatics out in the world that want to kill people by any means they see fit. Be it a gun or knife, axe handle, screwdriver or some other tool for killing. It's still going to happen.

I would rather own a firearm and never ever have to use the damn thing, than not have one and suddenly need it.

It's just funny to me that in light of what just happened, now everyone despises the 2nd amendment, but the other 9 are just peachy.

[Khan]

Well a lot of people have questioned the second ammendment for as long as I can remember (okay that's admittedly not that long, but I still remember it being an issue in the past). The issue for me is that while there may always be people who want to do harm to others making weapons to do it with harder to obtain will surely help curb the problem. We hae a problem here with knife crime but that still pale's in comparison to swhat happens in the US because its so much harder to get a weapon.

[Lord J]

I would rather own a firearm and never ever have to use the damn thing, than not have one and suddenly need it.

It's just funny to me that in light of what just happened, now everyone despises the 2nd amendment, but the other 9 are just peachy.

Good point, considering that freedom of the press is part of what has led to April being such a bloody month.

Still though, thinking back into history and all of the violence frim the Civil Rights movement, from the Irish settlers in New York, from "Southern gentlemen" who grew their thumbnails out long to gouge peoples' eyes, and that's all within the last few centuries here in the US.  Guns were not a major part of any of that violence, and yet people were killed by the droves.

[Negative Reaction]

Guns have always seemed to have been a problem since their invention, but perhaps following the Virginia Tech shootings, there may be a need for change.  There should be some better rules and laws regarding gun ownership and all people who have a mental health history should not allowed to have any access to a firearm.  Of course, there are other things that can be done.  Thats what I think about gun control anyhow.

Agree or Disagree

- Negative Reaction