Moral standards: societal, religious

[Acriku]

I've been wanting to question quite a few "moral standards" that have been set up by society or religion that make absolutely no sense. I'll first begin with "no sex before marriage." This is the worst possible advice. While it does prevent pregnancy a bit more and perhaps the spread of viruses (although only a bit, since many still perform oral sex), it makes absolutely no sense. Why should we repress sexual urges with another consenting person (keeping in mind child sex laws)? Jesus wouldn't care. Hell, if you believe in him he'll forgive you anyway. It might be a personal decision, but usually personal decisions have some reasoning behind it. Like I have a personal decision to wear deoderant. It makes sense. Not only does the no-sex decision not make sense, there are several reasons why it makes sense to have sex before marriage. First, you will be more experienced with your new wife/husband and can both have a more pleasureable experience. Second, it reduces so much stress and gives a good work-out (vital for Americans). While I say this, I fully advocate safe sex, 100%. The best reason is said on this shirt:

The second one I'll mention that is a moral standard that doesn't make any sense is the sensitivity given to "black" or "African American" folk. I had a heated discussion earlier this week with a black lady about it (I work with her). My feelings, which I do not believe to be racist, are that if black people want equality, then they should stop perpetuating the "black culture" as being "black." They should stop saying "black power." They should stop praising their race or skin color. Like how it has nothing to do with how stupid or intelligent they are, it has nothing to do with whatever they're praising it for. Affirmative action is a bad thing with a good cause. It helps even up the chasm between races in getting jobs, education, etc that was caused by prior events leading up to today, it does it in the same fashion that what caused the need for it. There needs to be another system. If I say white power (which I would never do), I might as well wear a hood on because that's what people would think. If a black person says "black power" or "i love being black", they won't get the same looks. they'll probably be agreed with (if they are black) or simply nodded at. Once again, I am not racist but I can see how racism is going both ways now, and is perpetuated by government programs (affirmative action mostly) and the way the "black culture" works. Hell, there's a channel called Black Entertainment Channel on the basic cable lineup. There will never be a White Entertainment channel (but some might alude to VH-1 lol). It makes no sense.

[nemafakei]

Does anyone else find that bloke's expression rather unnerving. And his shirt is outright scary. You know, I don't think the picture helps your cause, Acriku

[Andrew]

Abstinence taught as main way to prevent pregnancy and STDs at high school. 13% of females are pregnant there.

This shows why abstinence is bullshit.

Abstinence works in theory, just like communism works.

Abstinence works great in Africa as well. That's why Aids is so popular. And if you say that is because all these women are raped all the time and stuff, then maybe instead of spending infinite amount of money on aids research, that money should be spent on the problem which is guys raping women.

Penn and Teller Bullshit episode on Abstinence - EDIT the video is not safe for work (porn etc)! so watch with precaution.

[Acriku]

Does anyone else find that bloke's expression rather unnerving. And his shirt is outright scary. You know, I don't think the picture helps your cause, Acriku

It was more of a comedic relief than an actual addition to my argument :P

[chatfsh]

Sex, the act itself, is not really the issue, it

[Andrew]

I agree that they should teach that abstinence will prevent unwanted pregnancies, diseases etc, and then once they say that obvious bit of information (duh, kinda like "you will not die from a parachuting accident if you never get on a plane"), then teach about safe sex and pound it in their head about safe sex. Those that will abstain will abstain, those that don't will be having sex whether anyone thinks it is morally correct or not.

EDIT:

Let's say that 2 people do abstain from having sex until married. Let's say they have sex on their honeymoon or whenever, they will still not know anything about safe sex, and could still have an unwanted child. Just because 2 people are married does not necessarily mean they are ready for a child (financially, psycologically). Hey let's go get married then we can have lots of sex and it is morally ok!

[chatfsh]

No, I think more than a cursory "Don't do it speech"  is in order before launching into the safe sex talk.  If an hour were being given to the topic, I think at least half the time should be dedicated to discussing the merits of abstinence.  Sure drill the safe sex part in their heads, but why not drill abstinence as well.  Despite raging hormones, some young people respond to wisdom.  When I was that age, I know I took abstinence very seriously.  It was inculcated into me by my parents and the church.

Just because someone waits till they're older or married doesn't preclude the possibility that they would be knowledgeable about birth control.  It would be silly to think such.  Chances are they would be better equipped to deal with all the consequences of a sexual relationship, than would a couple of randy teenagers.

[Acriku]

No, I think more than a cursory "Don't do it speech"  is in order before launching into the safe sex talk.  If an hour were being given to the topic, I think at least half the time should be dedicated to discussing the merits of abstinence.  Sure drill the safe sex part in their heads, but why not drill abstinence as well.  Despite raging hormones, some young people respond to wisdom.  When I was that age, I know I took abstinence very seriously.  It was inculcated in me from my parents and the church.

Just because someone waits till they're older or married doesn't preclude the possibility that they would be knowledgeable about birth control.  It would be silly to think such.  Chances are they would be better equipped to deal with all the consequences of a sexual relationship, than would a couple of randy teenagers.

Actually, the programs they have at schools concerning abstinence are beyond useless and borderline retarded. Sex is a wonderful thing, and teaching 10 minutes or an hour about abstinence will not stop the kids from having sex if they really want it. Filling their heads with propaganda (since it is really pushing an agenda on morals onto the children) is not the way to do it. Give the options available to the students. Above all, teach safe sex! UCF (my university) gives out free condoms because they'd rather have safe sex than unwanted pregnancies.

Also, cchatfsh, it's interesting you asked that because i had a girlfriend who I knew for a long time and did say wait until marriage, but I don't think I was too bothered by it (in other words, respected her wishes instead of arguing against them).

[GUNWOUNDS]

I personally am glad that i didnt whore around in highschool... i knew kids back then with herpes in highschool...... i met this hot blonde chick at college... you know what?.. found out she had herpes.

Let me tell you something.... sex isnt worth the diseases.  And when you are 15, 16, 17, 18 you cant just go up to someone and say... "Hey show me your blood results and then we can start banging"  ... there is just no cool way to do it (well maybe except for one way...read below).

When i met my wife in college we were both freshmen.... the way i got around it was this.... i said "hey there's a red cross blood drive down at the student center wanna go give blood?   Well we both went down and gave blood and when she got her "Thanks for your blood come back again" card.  I knew it was safe to get intimate.  Man.... there is a widely known statistic at the college i graduated from.  1 out of 4 people have a freaking STD !!  All the sex in the world isnt worth it for me to have burning sensations, red bumps, and a disease that degrades my immune system.  No way.

I thank abstinence for keeping me from the disease-ridden fleabags that other have become.

Oh and I wasnt about to risk my life or health on a thin piece of rubbing tubing either, so preaching safe sex doesnt cut it for me.   I mean the hot blonde that i knew had herpes.... shit... i wouldnt touch her with a ten-foot pole.... or my penis inside a condom (pun intended  ;)).  Safe sex is easy to preach when you dont know what disease someone has .... but the minute you know someone is infected i highly doubt that you would want to risk it even with a condom.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned but i think refraining from sex or being very cautious is a GOOD thing.  This aint the 70's where all disease can be cured with penicillin.  70's Free Lovin' is over.

Oh and when i have a kid..... what am i gonna tell them?  "Hey abstinence is stupid !"   Ermm... no.... I'll try to keep them as innocent as possible for as long as possible.  Its what any parent would do.  Its not propaganda... its just good parenting.

Trying to say that abstinence is propaganda is just extreme macho-ism that leads children down a destructive path.  And even my loudmouthed self wont stoop to that.

But one thing that was great.... when i knew my soon-to-be wife was disease-free .... well she was on birth control and i had all the condom-less, guilt-free, uninhibited, worry-less,  sex i could ever want.  And you know what?  That was definitely worth waiting for.

My views arent totally strict to the point of "oh you cant have sex till the marriage license is signed".  But if you are engaged (fiance') and you truly believe in your heart you want to marry the girl.  Then i think its ok.  I guess what i am trying to say is that sex done in true love is ok while just banging a girl for a piece of ass is disgusting and destructive.  Thats just my opinion.

But i do think it is honorable that you respected your girlfriend's wishes Acriku.  As a father thats the type of son-in-law i would look for, i.e. the gentleman.

Guns

[Cyborg]

Guns, the high schools in the US sound worse than the average Thai slum brothel. Here in Norway, there's little disease, so the chances are minute that you get infected with somethine even if you don't wear a condom. Now, let's say you actualy... wear a condom. Problem solved! No disease, and no kids.

My take on it is that if you want to dip your loaf, why not? Sex is something that has, in an absurd way, been made "illegal." It's good for you, and very fun. As long as the girl is dancing along, all should be fine. Swing it!

By the way, us humans are still animals, and it's very natural for us, especially the boys, to want sex. I can't see anything negative with fulfilling that primal craving (as long as both parts agree doing it).

[chatfsh]

Trust me

[Cyborg]

You shouldn't feel forced to have sex, yesh. Many, if not most, young who have sex do it because of the pressure these days. That's wrong. It's all about passion. Though, if you do have a girlfriend and you're 16 and lying there cuddling in the sofa for the nth time, I don't see the point in waiting two years.

[GUNWOUNDS]

You shouldn't feel forced to have sex, yesh. Many, if not most, young who have sex do it because of the pressure these days. That's wrong. It's all about passion. Though, if you do have a girlfriend and you're 16 and lying there cuddling in the sofa for the nth time, I don't see the point in waiting two years.

Understandable but as a father you dont want to think about your 16 yr old kid "doing it" on your sofa.  And very few 16 yr olds have sex for the right reasons.  Most 16 yr old boys have sex just because they got an itch that needs to be scratched.  And the girl usually is only having sex to appease the ever-aggressing boyfriend ... or they both have sex due to the peer-pressure stigma of being a "lame virgin".   You shouldnt have sex for any of those reasons.  You should have sex if both parties are mature enough to understand what the implications are.

For me the litmus test was easy.  I would ask myself  "if i get her pregnant... would i want to stay with her?....do i want her to be the mother of my kids??"   If the answer was NO then it meant i really didnt care for her and it meant that i really shouldnt be taking liberties with her.

If the answer is yes then it means you truly care for her and that if anything were to go wrong..... it would be ok because i wouldnt mind commiting to her or supporting the children.   

I know it may sound "lame"  but these are important questions one must ask themselves to truly understand how they feel about someone and whether they are truly "making love"  or just using their boyfriend/girlfriend as a living masturbatory device.

And if you want to take teh extreme viewpoint, then fine,  let the kiddies have all the sex they want... but if the guy gets the girl pregnant... your ass better start making the child support payments and come change some diapers. And the girl better get ready to start gaining 25-50 pounds.

And if they catch a disease.... be prepared to deal with the consequences of having to take medication for the rest of your life to suppress gential herpes outbreak.... or expensive AIDS immuno-boosters to keep your immune system up for the rest of your shortened life.  So in short.... do what you want... but be responsible enough to take the consequences.  Problem is tho... most kids are naive and dont have a clue what they're getting into.

Guns

[Acriku]

If a woman is on birth control, and condoms are in use, then there is not much argument against having sex beyond a personal reason. Most 16 year olds have sex because they are bombarded with sexual hormones over and over, where masturbation can barely satisfy them. I agree on the peer pressure part, as it is never a good idea to do something for that reason alone. But if both want it, then both should be able to have it. And they most likely will, regardless of standards. Which is why teaching of sexual responsibility and safety is so very crucial. Abstinence can be brought up as a choice, but should never be pushed onto the children as propaganda. Back to the topic, saving yourself for marriage remains a nonsense stance to have. What is special about being married that you have to wait for it to have sex? Marriage doesn't bring magical money fairies to build a financial foundation, nor does it matter if you have a kid (willing) without marrying the guy or girl.

As for the "black" topic, does anyone agree/disagree? I hope you're not too sensitive for that topic.

[Caid Ivik]

I would rather comment the "black" topic; well, they are a minority within a white national state (at least we Europeans tend to see USA so). I don't fully understand relations between nations and generally cultural groups in USA, as in european states it is usual, that one nation is (quantitatively) dominant in the state; its cultural activity is always state-wide, while ethnic minorities present themselves as more local, active within the ethnicum - as Slovaks in Hungary do slovak festivals and Hungarians in Slovakia do hungarian festivals.

Sometimes we see USA as not nationally, but racially divided into a dominant white population, and then to red, hispanic and black minorities. I wouldn't say it is a real racism yet, just the numbers aren't equal. When there'll be more blacks than whites in USA, you'll see white minorities and their isolated cultural activities.

[chatfsh]

Acriku-  I can

[Dante]

I'm of the "Do it if you want, but on your head be it" school of thought. If people want to have sex, let them. If they think that they are mature enough to deal with the act and the potential consequences, let them prove it. Inhibiting this belief in themselves will only cause frustration, both mental and physical. If it goes well, then well and good. If it goes badly, then it's a learning experience.

1- Emotional problems.

"He used me!" "She expects a relationship!" And all that jazz. Well then, you should have been more clear about what you wanted beforehand, shouldn't you? Clearly this relationship is not going to work, end it and remember this lesson for next time.

2- STDs.

You weren't careful enough. Your own stupid fault.

3- Pregnancy.

That's what abortions are for, doofus.

You may have guessed, I figure that if you want to enjoy sex then go ahead, but if you make a mistake then it's not my problem.

If in some horrible, twisted alternate dimension I somehow end up having children, my advice to them will be this:

I don't want you to have sex until you're sixteen. Freedom is all very well and I don't particularly mind the thought of an unexpected grandchild right now, but the law is the law and if you fall foul of it then it's my arse on the line. Sixteen, got it?

If at sixteen you decide you want to have sex, then I won't stop you. I will, however, strongly recommend that you consider what you want, what you think the other person(/s) want, and whether this is a good idea. If you just want a night of casual sex, so be it, but make sure that this is what the other person wants as well. This needn't be through a 'long, deep discussion' because we both know how little time it takes to remove clothing in a hurry. I suggest you learn to summarise. Also don't mess up my couch.

You will practice safe sex or by thunder I will lock you in a tower with no doors and only a single window at the top with nothing but a thorn bush and a giant hairbrush for company. If accidents happen then they happen, we'll deal with it, but if you're stupid enough to open the door for babies and syphilis to come prancing into your life then don't come crying to me.

Remember that you don't have to have sex. If you don't want to, don't. It really is that simple. And don't let anyone try to force you into it.

Abstinence is a bad word.

Why? It brings all sorts of stupid connotations to mind. "Remaining pure" being the first. How pure is your average teenager, do they think that not shagging will make them any better? Any cleaner? Sure they won't catch any of the nastier diseases through sexual contact, but it's quite possible to get infections down there without the help of someone else. Very pure. Besides which, it smacks of the old days when a man could divorce his wife if he found that she wasn't a virgin. What is this, a desperate ploy to keep someone? "You have to stay with me, I saved myself for you!" Not to mention the implied snobbery of the whole thing. "Oh, I'm saving myself. You aren't, you're just whoring around like some dirty slut. You're a filthy animal and I'm a pure, clean virgin." It's disgusting. You can choose not to have sex if you want, heck you can remain a virgin for the rest of your life for all I care, but try to turn it into some moral crusade and I swear I will have you adopted by your aunt. Yeah, I thought that would scare you.

No, I don't particularly care who you have sex with. Male, female, neither, both, just make sure that they behave properly and we're good. If they don't then you chose the wrong partner and that was stupid, wasn't it? I'd prefer to think that I raised you better than to be stupid.

Honestly speaking though, I'm unlikely to end up with children unless some long-term partner that I have yet to meet wants some. I'm not a child person. Which will probably lead to me being a bad parent. Meh.

Regarding the other issue, I agree with Acriku. Badda boom.

[TMA_1]

the issue of race is really complicated. Most in this country dont believe in assimilation, which would really help to solve the issues concerning race relations. But because class is inseperably mixed with race issues, it really is an unworkable theory. Many minorities in this country wish to express their differences, and dispise when people say that they dont see color, only the person. The problem I see with this is the fact that African Americans have no real culture, like the rest of the American people. Almost every single African American cannot trace their lineage back to Africa, and their roots to Africa have been fully stripped, so how can African Americans promote a culture that they dont have? It is as rediculous as people who wish to promote White Power, or white culture. So I actually agree with you Acriku.

But because of the bitterness (which I can empathize with) that many minorities feel about the white majority in America, they wish to seperate themselves from them. Heh, makes me think of the song "Us and Them" by pink floyd. Kinda sad because all of these issues will never be resolved.

Well there are my two cents of rambling thoughts.lol

[TMA_1]

yeah...

shouldnt that propaganda piece say the exact opposite? It should say that if you dont stay abstinent, then the terrorists win.

hmm.

[Acriku]

yeah...

shouldnt that propaganda piece say the exact opposite? It should say that if you dont stay abstinent, then the terrorists win.

hmm.

That's the joke ;-)

[Khan]

Will you adopt me Dante?

Why is it that any issue raised on topics such as this around Gunwounds instantly ends up with a slippery slope to the apocalypse? People having sex young instantly means babies, aids and a one way ticet to loserville? Now I personally waited till I was 18 (don't know if you consider that young) But for the two of my friends that I know had sex when they were young 1 is just about to start his second year of university studying international politics and the other just got back from a trip around argentina and is working full time at borders. Neither of them, to my knowledge (they could have kept it a secret) has ever had a child or an STD. In fact I cant think of any one I know who  has had a child or an STD who started having sex at a young age. However, there are all these tricky statistics and media stories about young people, pregnancies and STDs, and yet its never happened to anyone I know. Heck I can walk down the road and pass countless numbers of mums with young kids. Now I don't live in a very bad area, there's quite a few council estates around but its definitely no Brixton. But I can tell straight away what school every young mum went to and I could probably pinpoint around the exact age they stopped going to said school.

Now the point of that enormous digression through a window into my life is that people having sex at a young age causes no problems what-so-ever, taking the cases of my friends and the people I went to school with. Yet it was a problem for the people who live near me and I know dropped out of school. The moral of the story is if you're educated you can have all the guilt free worry free sex you want. But if you skip school you'll end up dying alone abandoned by your fifteen kids, constantly fidgeting because of the burning sensation in your groin.

I still want Dante to adopt me.

[Acriku]

Ach!  You mean I refrained all those years for nothing??  All that time wasted when there was sex to be had?  Oh, the horror

[Acriku]

Haha, just doing my patriotic duty, ma'am.

Anyway, I can't think of anything that "grinds my gears" right now so someone post something controversial.

[nemafakei]

"Try dinner and a movie first."

http://dune2k.com/forum/index.php?topic=19297.0

http://dune2k.com/forum/index.php?topic=19306.0

Looks like Acriku's already thought of that.

"(Dante-- did I use the term

[Acriku]

Very clever Nema ;)