US Immigration Controversy

[Andrew]

Well this seems to be in the news the last week. Thought I'd make a thread.

I don't see what is wrong with harsher penalties for illegal immigrants. Of course someone will immediatly say something like "But you need them to work for cheap manual labour! No american will do the work, so you need them!"

I think that's BS. I have nothing against legal immigration where you know who is where and their info and they pay taxes, but you cant have people going wherever and getting paid under the table and them "not existing". I mean Canadians going into the US need Work visas, you cant just legally drive down and start working. You have to state work or pleasure when crossing the border.

What brought me to write this thread is seeing an article on boing boing that pointed to a school teacher (whose parents immigrated from Mexico).

There are a couple good reads

http://cathoderay.blogspot.com/

Note the 3.27.2006 and 3.24.2006 blogs. It shows that they don't really care, but talk the talk, but dont walk the walk.

In Canada, we are deporting illegal immigrants (some who have been here for 7 years, wierd) and in the news people are upset. Then you got people complaining that housing is going to slow as you don't got as many workers as they are getting deported. But as someone pointed out its not fair to make exceptions for the illegal immigrants, as you got legal immigrants waiting for years on the list to get into Canada legally. Letting illegals stay means it is alright to come illegaly.

They really need to do something in the US about the illegals goign into that country. I think it's about 1 million illegals try to get into the US each year. They expect health care, infrastructure, education etc, but no taxes?

I'm not from the US and don't follow up on the subject too much, so correct my mistakes. :)

[GhostHunter]

One of the protestors on CNN said, "you're neglecting our rights." No, you have no rights. American citizens have rights. Not you.

[VigilVirus]

My family was actually going to move to Canada, but then we got permanent residency cards in the US. Sorry  ;). I'm a citizen now anyway.

But in this situation, ultimately there has to be a single standard. For example, why is that those crossing over from Cuba are allowed and encouraged to stay, when those south of the border are shunned and now are to be penalized/deported? There has to be one law from all, without exceptions or ad hoc groups.

[GhostHunter]

Coming over from Cuba isn't encouraged. That's why the US Coast Gaurd spends such a large amount of money patrolling the waters to find illegal aliens trying to sneak in through Florida.

I have nothing against immigration. Hell, it's what makes this country so great: the oppurtunity for anyone of anywhere to succeed. But it's idiotic that these bimbos anticipate toleration of refusal to become a US citizen. If you come to work and live here then you should be forced to register for citizenship. That's the same case many other civilized states -- including European.

People who do otherwise (aka - come here and reside, taking up occupation without documentation) should be charged as a felon. End of story. They're coming in, and *literally* stealing jobs from *actual* Americans, while refusing to become one themselves.

Another truth is that the open boarders policy gives way for terrorists (not being paranoid, just a subtle reality) to make their way in. CNN was talking about how Iranian and Pakistani individuals with terrorist backgrounds have been seized in the past attempting to sneak in through Mexico.

[Acriku]

I think that if you pay your taxes, work an honest job, then you should be allowed to stay (save for enormous influx problems). If you don't, then get out.

[exatreide]

I find it ironic that we invaded Iraq to spread democracy and give the Iraqi's better lives then they had under Saddamn Hussien, however when Mexicans try to do the same by moving to America we declare them felons. Be they WOPs or not(new age wops har har)(not being racist Italian immigrents who came to America were referd to as WOPS or with out papers)

Ghost, what do you think Mexicans wait outside Wal-Mart waiting for Americans to quit so they can snatch their jobs and sleep in the back storage area? You really shouldn't be blamming the Im's for trying to get a better life, but blaming our goverment for suporting NAFTA and CAFTA and having American job's exported over seas.

[Anathema]

Generally, the people I always see defending illegal immigrants always use the same strategy: simply don't adress the fact that they're illegal, and just banter endlessly about human rights and/or how America is a nation that's founded on immigrants.

Immigrants are not doing the jobs that Americans decline. What they do is take jobs wich companies won't give to Americans because they're more expensive. Illegals don't pay taxes (they do, however, make use of the same public benefits like registered citizens) and therefore will settle for lower wages.

I'm no American, but if I were I'd be hugely pissed off not only because how they got here illegally and how they leech off the system, but also have the nerve to protest publicly and shamelessly and demand the same rights as citizens.

That said, no new laws are needed, but the existing ones need to be enforced.

[Andrew]

I find it ironic that we invaded Iraq to spread democracy and give the Iraqi's better lives then they had under Saddamn Hussien, however when Mexicans try to do the same by moving to America we declare them felons.

That's a far analogy, I don't think  Americans are moving to Iraq to take jobs away from Iraqis illegally. Of course you could say the war is illegal, but that's a whole different topic.

There's nothing wrong with legal immigration where you know about the immigrants, but illegal you have people coming and going as they please and not paying taxes while getting the luxery of a job, infrastructure etc.

I mean would it be alright if 100 million illegal Chinese immigrants moved into the US next year? They have the right to sneak in and do whatever they want?

Just imagine if lots of illegal immigrants came to US and would work for very cheap labour. Companies would hire them as they could pay them cheap and increase profit. That's mostly why they export the jobs to other countries, but it's no different than hiring illegals for cheap in America (Americans still losing jobs)

What Anathema said as well :)

[Edric O]

Immigrants are not doing the jobs that Americans decline. What they do is take jobs wich companies won't give to Americans because they're more expensive. Illegals don't pay taxes (they do, however, make use of the same public benefits like registered citizens) and therefore will settle for lower wages.

They don't settle for lower wages because they don't pay taxes, they settle for lower wages because they don't have a choice. What are they going to do? Strike? Sue their employers? No, because they're illegals, so they can't appeal to the state to protect them from overly exploitative bosses. Companies can treat them like dirt and get away with it.

However, it's inaccurate to say that illegal immigrants "steal" American jobs. They are given those jobs by companies that want to hire people who will work for lower wages and don't have any rights. In fact, even if they had to pay illegal immigrants the same wages they pay to Americans, companies would still prefer to hire illegals. Why? Well think of the benefits: Illegals can't strike, they can't sue you if you abuse them, they can't complain about poor working conditions, they can't complain about discrimination, and, best of all, you can fire them or break your promises any time you want for no reason at all.

In many ways, illegal immigrants get the same treatment as workers under a laissez-faire pure capitalist system. They don't pay any taxes and don't have any workers' rights.

I'm no American, but if I were I'd be hugely pissed off not only because how they got here illegally and how they leech off the system, but also have the nerve to protest publicly and shamelessly and demand the same rights as citizens.

Fact: Illegal immigrants wouldn't exist at all if there weren't any American companies willing to hire them. So, rather than tightening border controls, I propose to fix the problem at the root and massively increase the penalties for companies hiring illegals. Make them pay so dearly that no company in its right mind would consider taking the risk of hiring illegal immigrants. Problem solved.

[Andrew]

Well, it's not necessarily because they think they can get a job, but more of the "american dream" that their life will be better in America (and it probably will be). This would include getting a job.

I'd agree with you about penalizing companies for hiring illegals.

Much like in the Depression people headed towards cities, even though there was no work. (I have no idea what that means, it just popped into my head :P)

[GhostHunter]

Ghost, what do you think Mexicans wait outside Wal-Mart waiting for Americans to quit so they can snatch their jobs and sleep in the back storage area? You really shouldn't be blamming the Im's for trying to get a better life, but blaming our goverment for suporting NAFTA and CAFTA and having American job's exported over seas.

However, it's inaccurate to say that illegal immigrants "steal" American jobs. They are given those jobs by companies that want to hire people who will work for lower wages and don't have any rights.

No, they come here and take jobs. As I said, I have nothing against immigration. I have nothing against immigrants taking up occupations - as long as they become or make some attempt at US citizenship. It shouldn't be allowed that any individual who isn't a citizen can get an occupation in a country they're not part of. So it doesn't matter what they do, from lawn work, to CEO -- they're still taking *true* Americans jobs if they stay illegal.

For instance:

Wal-Mart has 100 job openings.

- There are 100 Americans

- There are 20 illegal immigrants.

If even *one* illegal alien gets a job - that's *Stealing*. It doesn't matter if they're hired based upon what pretenses, it matters that they're hired when they're illegal and thus throw out *real* Americans from getting a job.

[Andrew]

B-b-b-but, the illegal immigrants are doing jobs that no other american will ever do! This makes illegal immigrants necessary!

/sarcasm for those that I've seen at other forums try to bring that argument up.

[Edric O]

No, they come here and take jobs.

You can't "take" a job unless an employer offers it to you.

For instance:

Wal-Mart has 100 job openings.

- There are 100 Americans

- There are 20 illegal immigrants.

If even *one* illegal alien gets a job - that's *Stealing*.

If there is a car for sale, and both of us want it, and I manage to buy it ahead of you, does that mean I "stole" the car from you? Of course not - it wasn't yours in the first place. You wanted it, and you would have gotten it if it weren't for me, but I didn't steal anything. I might have done something wrong, illegal or immoral, but whatever I did was not "theft". The same applies to jobs.

By the way, in the scenario you described above, with Americans and illegal immigrants competing for jobs, who decides which people get those jobs? Wal-Mart does. It's their fault if they give a job to an illegal immigrant. If it weren't for them hiring illegals, there would be no incentive for illegals to come to the US in the first place.

[GhostHunter]

B-b-b-but, the illegal immigrants are doing jobs that no other american will ever do! This makes illegal immigrants necessary!

/sarcasm for those that I've seen at other forums try to bring that argument up.

Totally. The jobs existed before people started to mass migrate from Mexico.

You can't "take" a job unless an employer offers it to you.

Employers offers it. I accept. That's taking the job - when it's American vs. American that's just (mostly); welcome to organized Capitalism. When it's an illegal immigrant taking the same job, it's wrong. It's the duty of the culture to serve the people under it first -- not foriegners.

If there is a car for sale, and both of us want it, and I manage to buy it ahead of you, does that mean I "stole" the car from you? Of course not - it wasn't yours in the first place. You wanted it, and you would have gotten it if it weren't for me, but I didn't steal anything. I might have done something wrong, illegal or immoral, but whatever I did was not "theft". The same applies to jobs.

Yes, but you get busted for doing illegal things, that eventually lead to getting that car (saying you actually did do something wrong). The reality is it's theft when someone aquires a job in a civilization they're not part of. This is solely because it closes up the occupation to those who deserve it first: the actual citizens of that regime. As I previously stated: the government's purpose is to serve the populace, and the citizens should always come before illegal aliens.

By the way, in the scenario you described above, with Americans and illegal immigrants competing for jobs, who decides which people get those jobs? Wal-Mart does. It's their fault if they give a job to an illegal immigrant. If it weren't for them hiring illegals, there would be no incentive for illegals to come to the US in the first place.

No, it's the economic dismay in Mexico that causes them to come over. Regardless of whether or not there's necessasrily a job opening people come to the United Stated for new oppurtunities.

[Anathema]

They don't settle for lower wages because they don't pay taxes, they settle for lower wages because they don't have a choice. What are they going to do? Strike? Sue their employers? No, because they're illegals, so they can't appeal to the state to protect them from overly exploitative bosses. Companies can treat them like dirt and get away with it.

Hardly. Illegal immigrants are not some group that lives on the absolute periphery of society like you're claiming. Most illegals are employed by "Mom & Pop" style small busineses, not large companies. And because small busineses are still considered by many to be the "core" of the economy, any politician that would advocate serious measures against illegals (therefore pumping up the wages again) or even fining the employers would lose lots of votes.

Of course they wouldn't get hired if they tried to get the same wages as citizens, because in that case the employer would have no incentive to hire them. But because they don't pay taxes it's not as bad as it would be for them. No American would work for $6.00 as a janitor or a construction worker because there's absolutely no way you can live from that, unless you're not paying taxes.

However, it's inaccurate to say that illegal immigrants "steal" American jobs.

I never said any such thing.

They are given those jobs by companies that want to hire people who will work for lower wages and don't have any rights. In fact, even if they had to pay illegal immigrants the same wages they pay to Americans, companies would still prefer to hire illegals. Why? Well think of the benefits: Illegals can't strike, they can't sue you if you abuse them, they can't complain about poor working conditions, they can't complain about discrimination, and, best of all, you can fire them or break your promises any time you want for no reason at all.

The blame falls on both of them. On the employer for providing jobs that would otherwise have gone to tax paying citizens, and on the illegal immigrant for taking a job that should have gone to a citizen or workers who stay there legally with visas.

I don't hear or read lots of stories about abuse of illegal employees, but frankly, they don't deserve any better. If they got in legally as they should have and pay taxes for all the benefits they consume, they wouldn't be in such a hard position.

In many ways, illegal immigrants get the same treatment as workers under a laissez-faire pure capitalist system. They don't pay any taxes and don't have any workers' rights.

They don't deserve any wordkers' rights because as you said, they don't pay taxes while they do use the same infrastructure as tax payers.

Fact: Illegal immigrants wouldn't exist at all if there weren't any American companies willing to hire them. So, rather than tightening border controls, I propose to fix the problem at the root and massively increase the penalties for companies hiring illegals. Make them pay so dearly that no company in its right mind would consider taking the risk of hiring illegal immigrants. Problem solved.

Fining the employers is indeed the way ago, but as I have noted it's a politically sensitive measure. Add to that the sizable Latin American lobby and you've got an issue that no politician would touch with a ten feet pole. *coughBushcough*

[VigilVirus]

So, the general issue here is that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, correct? So, if such a concept was legalized and they were forced to pay taxes like everyone else, there'd be no dispute? Naturally, this will lead to them demanding higher paying jobs, but like stated before, employers are prone to choose citizens over immigrants if both are wishing for the same rate. Therefore, this will cause the number of illegal immigrants working in America to decrease, rather than increase.

[Andrew]

Not necessarily paying taxes, but becoming an american citizen (which means paying taxes).

[VigilVirus]

Not necessarily paying taxes, but becoming an american citizen (which means paying taxes).

You don't need to be an american citizen to pay taxes. All you need is a permanent legal residency or even a simple work visa. Becoming an american citizen usually takes a minimum of five years and is a more complex procedure.

[Andrew]

Ok then, what you said. Some legal documentation that says you can be in the US.

[jeff2429]

Funny how all them spics or to be nice, mexicans, are protesting and waving the mexican flag.  Last time I checked this was America not mexico.  Wouldn't it make more sense if they waved the American flag instead...r3tards... ::)  Course they're the lucky kids who were rushed across the border illegally and born here.

I am in no mood to defend them but I heard that the U.S. doesn't give out enough visas a year so it's impossible for all of them to become legal.  Maybe someone could check on that as i'm not sure.

[Egeides]

This question seems to be all about wether a territory is owned by:

- citizens

- humans

and especially WHEN or to which degree it is so (since it might change in some's opinion)

If one would like the micro version of this macro problematic, what about your personal property versus a person said "in need"? Or the government's property versus yours?

If we start seeing this question on forums as being of actuality, it might not be very good news. I think no one is ever going to get out of this circle without also including the older cases of nationalisms and immigrations, otherwise it is rapidly stuck in unreliabilities of "now".

[Andrew]

Lots of rallies yesterday.

I think those people who support illegal immigration are complete idiots.

Yes USA needs cheap labour to compete with other countries, but they need legal labour, not illegal.

And they go on down there about who is going to cut the grass and other jobs that no legal person will take! Well the grass cutters must do it at an extremely cheap non existant price, as cutting grass is what I do in the summer, and I'm not an illegal immigrant (I don't know any illegal immigrant grass cutters). Unless there is some complete cost difference or something, or maybe because they are illegal, they are able to pay them nothing, thus non illegals can not compete?

[Dante]

I don't like the idea that illegal immigrants are somehow less deserving because they are not citizens.

Employers offers it. I accept. That's taking the job - when it's American vs. American that's just (mostly); welcome to organized Capitalism. When it's an illegal immigrant taking the same job, it's wrong. It's the duty of the culture to serve the people under it first -- not foriegners.

It seems to be borderline racism. "Those ditry foreigners. Who do they think they are, coming over here with their carpet bags and their smelly children to steal our jobs and our women?"

Yeah, that last line was sarcasm.

As far as I'm concerned, employability should be determined almost exclusively by suitability for the job. If someone agrees to do the same work for a lower wage, fine fine. If 'real' citizens lose out, then they'll just have to go get another job. The trick here is to do a *better* job, thus command more money, thus reach a smaller job market with less competition. It's certainly not fair, but the job would get done.

But this is just refering to job prospects. Immigration itself is more of a thorny issue. Ideally, it would just be impossible to travel. Not so many illegal immigrants in the 19th Century, were there? And even if there were, they were welcomed with open arms...

Trying to make borders watertight is only going to lead to conflict, accident, and failure in the long run. Unless you want to build a larger version of Hadrian's Wall, with evenly spaced guard towers all the way along it, you aren't going to get a firm barrier. And even then only maybe. So, what to do? ...It occurs to me that I don't really care. I live on an island, and a small one at that. Everyone who immigrates here wants to go to London, not up here in the cold quiet. Eh, shoot each other for all I care.

Also, I'm not actually siding with the illegal immigrants. Just saying that it's not nice to dislike people for being foreigners in your country. But I'm not siding against them either.

Finally, does America have free healthcare? I was under the impression that it was very much... not.

[Andrew]

How can it be racist to oppose people who do illegal acts? If I go kill someone and you say that "I don't like people who kill others", that makes you a racist, and I should get a pardon even though I did something illegal?

It's illegal. What don't people understand about that?

Last night on wolfwitz or whatever on CNN, Lou Dobbs and a reporter that was at a demonstration were getting into a heated argument. The reporter called Lou Dobbs and others who oppose illegal imigration racists, and then Dobbs went on about how he guesses that every american that opposes illegal immigration (including himself) must be racists then. Then they went on about how these protests are not about laxing border protection or letting illegals in or some crap.

I had a good time laughing.

Articles that discuss what I'm talking about (I cant find the video) and seem to take the side of illegal immigration.

Maria Elena Salinas

Lou Dobbs Stick Foot In Mouth

[Dante]

I didn't say disliking people for doing something illegal, I said disliking someone for being a foreigner in your country. Pay attention.