Could God prove the existence of God?

[SpiceGuid]

Pharoahs claimed to be God and were worshipped as such. There was no logical dismissal.

Pharoahs claimed to be a mortal part of an otherwise immortal god, as i wrote that's enough to be worshipped as an immortal being. Also sincerity and truth are two different things. David Koresh was a poor imposter, not even sincere. People admire great and sincere leaders, being worshipped just adds to the loyalty.

[TMA_1]

Insert Quote

Well, you can also see that hinduism of 21th century radically differs from ie its form in 10th century BC. Religions aren't "creatures" which may or may not "survive", it's a way of thinking. There can be only very few forgotten (to use the right term) religions

totally, good point Caid. :)

[Dude_Doc]

I would rather like to hear some definition of "false religion"...

Scientology, R

[Caid Ivik]

Why not, even raelian hope for help of celestial civilizations is real, altough its basis is doubtful  ;D

[Blue]

Sorry, I didn't real all the posts as a few are quite repitive so I'm not sure if what I will say is covered.

It was mentioned that God is not omnipotent because he cannot prove himself to us. Firstly this is merely our imperfection in not being able to comprehend infinite data. But suppose we were able to. God has chosen to vastly limit his power to allow us free will. So no matter what he does, I can still choose to not believe in him. And there will proabably will always be a skeptic even if confronted by evidence.

Also, if there is proof, then there is no faith.

Also, its interesting that people people saying that atheists are hippocritical. They argue that you cannot prove God o there is no reason to believe in him, whilst theists may well argue that there is no reason not to.

Russel once wrote:

"Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of scep

[spazelord]

I hear a lot of

[Dante]

Reading your posts makes me want to hurt myself.

[spazelord]

Reading your posts makes me want to hurt myself.

lol you see when we don't want to see the truth we always want to hurt ourselves, get all emotional or hurt some one else cuz we fear the fact that we exist. we also don't have acceptance when we don't want to face the whole truth cuz it's not the way we want it to be, very cartoonish like stories and far from reality <<< sounds like a book we know?  ;)

[nemafakei]

Dante, be constructive, not destructive. To appeal to you less altruistic side, the pain won't go away until we force spazelord to punctuate his colons and fix his asyndeton.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Spazelord your posts suffer from inconsistency. Take a side.  First you cherish imagination as a good thing and use it as proof of a God.  Then you make fun of others who use their imagination to interpret God in a traditional way.  Then you yourself use your own imagination to make silly comparisons (like numbers and energy) and then you hypocritically make fun of people for the same. 

Your writing style is somewhat schizophrenic.  I cant tell if you are arguing for Christianity, for unity of science and theology, for new age hippie ideas, for appreciation of imagination, for the mockery of imagination, or for some sort of bizarre atheism that appreciates energy as some semantical alternative for the traditional millennial old view of God.

I think your problem is that you are arguing for too long... you have already stated your argument and have run out of things to say... so that you keep making pointless analogies that become less and less cohesive and/or relevant which causes people to become distracted from your original posts/points which causes people to forget what your primary message and so they only focus on your newly diluted incomprehensible message.

Also please spell illusion as "illusion"  not  "allusion". 

And finally please stop saying that the concept of God's qualities was merely created to control people by religious leaders. That has nothing to do with it.  Religious hierarchy of church roles and positions was created to control people... NOT God's perceived qualities as a Deity.  God's qualities as a Deity were pondered by Ancient Intellectual Philosophers and Theologians.  The ancient Jews were SLAVES .....who were they trying to control?  Who was Abraham trying to control?  The concept of God is NOT a modern thing..... the qualities of God and what He is was established long ago with people who had nothing to gain but spiritual salvation.   Spazelord i have to agree with Dante here.... your posts just aren't making sense.  I understand you are a new poster and that it may be exciting to post in the forums and have others read your ideas..... just be sure that you make it worth reading.... quality not quantity.

[spazelord]

Spazelord your posts suffer from inconsistency. Take a side.  First you cherish imagination as a good thing and use it as proof of a God.  Then you make fun of others who use their imagination to interpret God in a traditional way.  Then you yourself use your own imagination to make silly comparisons (like numbers and energy) and then you hypocritically make fun of people for the same. 

Your writing style is somewhat schizophrenic.  I cant tell if you are arguing for Christianity, for unity of science and theology, for new age hippie ideas, for appreciation of imagination, for the mockery of imagination, or for some sort of bizarre atheism that appreciates energy as some semantical alternative for the traditional millennial old view of God.

I think your problem is that you are arguing for too long... you have already stated your argument and have run out of things to say... so that you keep making pointless analogies that become less and less cohesive and/or relevant which causes people to become distracted from your original posts/points which causes people to forget what your primary message and so they only focus on your newly diluted incomprehensible message.

Also please spell illusion as "illusion"  not  "allusion". 

And finally please stop saying that the concept of God's qualities was merely created to control people by religious leaders. That has nothing to do with it.  Religious hierarchy of church roles and positions was created to control people... NOT God's perceived qualities as a Deity.  God's qualities as a Deity were pondered by Ancient Intellectual Philosophers and Theologians.  The ancient Jews were SLAVES .....who were they trying to control?  Who was Abraham trying to control?  The concept of God is NOT a modern thing..... the qualities of God and what He is was established long ago with people who had nothing to gain but spiritual salvation.   Spazelord i have to agree with Dante here.... your posts just aren't making sense.  I understand you are a new poster and that it may be exciting to post in the forums and have others read your ideas..... just be sure that you make it worth reading.... quality not quantity.

gun its funny how you answer every single post that I

[spazelord]

I complemented edric

[Dante]

lol you see when we don't want to see the truth we always want to hurt ourselves, get all emotional or hurt some one else cuz we fear the fact that we exist. we also don't have acceptance when we don't want to face the whole truth cuz it's not the way we want it to be, very cartoonish like stories and far from reality <<< sounds like a book we know?  ;)

No, I just hate every word you write. Reading them actually causes me physical pain. Not just for grammatical reasons, though I hope that will be taken as a hint to improve said grammar, but the spirit behind the words makes me want to slam my head against a wall again and again until the pain caused by that action is greater.

And in order to give a slightly more constructive side to what is basically an insult, capitalise properly. It's the first step on a long but oh so useful road.

[spazelord]

No, I just hate every word you write. Reading them actually causes me physical pain. Not just for grammatical reasons, though I hope that will be taken as a hint to improve said grammar, but the spirit behind the words makes me want to slam my head against a wall again and again until the pain caused by that action is greater.

And in order to give a slightly more constructive side to what is basically an insult, capitalise properly. It's the first step on a long but oh so useful road.

It

[TMA_1]

"It was not always glamorous for the Jesus story... it barely survived in the beginning, and needed nothing short of a few crusades to save it for longer. There were a couple times when it was nearly wiped out. At any rate, Hinduism has survived for more than twice as long as Christianity. Certain religions are just not as obviously fake."

hmm.

using such a blunt term as "fake" to categorize an entire group of followers is a bit foolish. Also, nema is very much correct. Hinduism has an extremely cloudy idea of God. It didnt evolve from the same preconcieved notions of Absolute Deity. You are dealing with two totally different animals here. With hinduism, you have to take into account so many different variables that made it a faith with so many followers. Hinduism has evolved in so many different ways and forms, you could almost say that hinduism could never die because of this. It is such an open faced religion, especially because the theology was nonexistant for a portion of it's existence, and even when it did develope, it developed in a completely different way than christian theology did.

Christianity did have a rough start, but I do have to burst your bubble in one area. YOu said that it almost faced extinction, and that is really a huge generalization purpetrated by academics who say that Islam was going to conquer the whole of europe. That simply couldnt have happened, and even the idea of speculating on a scenerio of that nature is a bit childish. many other reasons besides this why those statements you made were false.

[Megashrap]

Spaze man, I know your sorta new at the PRP threads and I can understand that. However, if the topic of this thread is open to question or dispute. It makes no sense to debunk every single post by anyone other than yourself. Since this topic is basically a somewhat strange theory based question, then accept what others have posted on the topic for what it is, a rebuttal, nothing more. Everyone who has posted in this thread has different opinions.

[Dude_Doc]

We are truly way way far from the truth I don

[spazelord]

Well, for starters, Christianity wasn't controlled by anyone in the beginning. The control came much later, when religion was used as a tool of war.

Besides, if religions were created to control people - then why didn't they say so? Why is there you can't find anything in the Bible saying that it is your duty to convert or kill every human being? Or that if you even consider anything not written in the text you must be executed? Instead, we read things like "Thou shall not kill", "Love thy neighbour" - even to care about whatever enemy we are fighting.

Not a very efficent way to control people.

The ability to write, and read for that matter, was known by very few back then. It shows that those people were, contrary to your belief, educated enough to write something like (I assume) the Bible.

And a sidenote, since you've pointed out that the Bible may be false, then what basis do you have for your belief that God is this energy you talk about? 

So you know that God is intelligent energy? 

No one knows what the smallest "thing" is. Contrary to your belief, science has this theory about superstrings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory_%28simplified%29

And, again, what is your basis for the idea that everything continues to be bigger and bigger/smaller and smaller in "all eternity"?

So you mean humans do have a form of soul after all?

I'll have to side with Guns on this one. I.e., how do you define God? I mean, we're all made of atoms, then are atoms "God" or matter? Do you call God "God" because you don't have a scientific word for what "everything is", or do you view everything as a supernatural force?

In other words, if I understood it correctly: We and Matter/Time/Dimension are part of it all and there is no specific place for Matter/Time/Dimension becuase we are part of Matter/Time/Dimension and because we are Matter/Time/Dimension???

How can you be so sure that it is not you who refuses to see the facts of established religions with hundreds of years of thinking, knowledge and philosophy. You claim you just flushed hundreds of years of thought down the drain and explained it all in less than 50 posts since you registered. Not good enough.

Uh, he doesn't believe in God. In any form.

Unlimited? We die after 80 years. You call that unlimited? Magnificent? Say that to Adolph Hitler.

Now, you can't point fingers at people and say that they don't understand, but you do, and say that you are right because they seem emotionally "disturbed" by what you have written.

I can use the same argument against you:

You choose to think of God because you fear death. You are unwilling to accept that you are just a simple person, consisting of matter and trapped by time like everybody else. You call everything "God" because you think that something will happen after death, while deep down you know that when life ends, it will be the end of everything you know and remember.

What if the person in question doesn't believe in spirituality?

I know that Hitler thoght that he was some kind of greater being... but not many other leaders I know of. I would certainly like to hear George H. Bush say those words :D ...

Hey Dr if your really a Dr. you sure aren

[Dante]

It

[TMA_1]

I know that this is getting totally pushy, but I just have to say...

what is wrong dante??? It seems like your cynical outlook has fallen to negative number levels. Dont let it go too far, the loathing of others generally points to some sort of self loathing. And no, I am not trying to say that in any condescending way.

[Dante]

You know I'm not sure. For some reason ever since I came to university my patience with idiots has almost evaporated. I thought it was just a phase of viciousness, but it's been a while now. Ah well. *Shrug*

[Dude_Doc]

Knowing how important money is to religion and how much they make.

Money is not important to religion - they don't share some kind of link in which neither can survive without the other one. Money is used in the church because it is used everywhere in capitalism. Besides, you don't have to be rich, or have any money to visit a church and read the Bible. Well, at least not where I live.

Its a Multibillion dollar business and yet they can

[spazelord]

*Sigh* No, it's not that I can't handle your point of view, it's that your point of view is wrong, and I find it laughably stupid. Or at least that's my opinion. Can't get much more blunt than that. It's true that the way you write bothers me, but that's because bad grammar generally does. And I have more right to point that out than you, simply because I've never used 'cuz' in a sentance.

I could go on, your latest post is little more than a long line of things that I could list to justify my newfound dislike of you and everything you stand for, but frankly I have better things to do with my time.

That good! Spend more time on learning and becoming perfect in writing and reading English. You see not only my writing bothers you so does my opinion. Amazes me to see that your models of life (parents), only thought you to be perfect in life >>>cuz<<< the way you sound is a being who

[spazelord]

Money is not important to religion - they don't share some kind of link in which neither can survive without the other one. Money is used in the church because it is used everywhere in capitalism. Besides, you don't have to be rich, or have any money to visit a church and read the Bible. Well, at least not where I live.

And you tell me I'm the one ignorant of politics? You can say the same thing to any charity-organization in the world - they still have jobs to do despite the facts that they get millions of credits every month. The seven most richest men in the world can feed the entire world tomorrow. We live in a capitalist world. You can't eradicate poverty because poverty is a part of capitalism itself - in order for some to be rich, another one has to be poor.

So because you don't like established religion you think everybody who follows that religion is a blind fool? I myself questioned religion itself for a very, very long time, and yet to this day I still have some unanswered questions. Hell, if anyone, I'm the one to consider the most logical and illogical arguments out there. So don't point fingers at people and tell them they don't know what they are doing. It would be the same to say that all Muslims share the same view as Iran's Ahmadinejad does.

There are many factions in any belief. Do you think the science community share the exact same view? Politics have many branches, both on the left and right. So why should this not be the same with religion? If I have a leftist perspective on politics, then I probably do not have the same view of religion as a person who have right-wing politics. There are battles in every field humans have meddled with. If unity is a way for you to see stability and progress, then why are there still political battles for example?

But do you have a basis for it? What, that someone told you so?

So if Jesus was so great, then why would his followers, according to you, not write down the exact truth? If Jesus had simply said "you don't have to believe in anything" or "there is no hell", then what was the purpose of a religious book?

Uh, yes and no. People created religion to follow Jesus, but like the Soviet Union, religion became corrupted. That doesn't mean that the idea is wrong or that everybody who follows that idea is bad in some way.

On the contrary, we consume energy to remain alive. And what senses do you speak of? Aware of what?

You mean that we only use a small part of the brain's real potential, yes, that I agree on. And it probably means that we don't know everything about the brain. After all, the human being is a very complex being, requiring many processes to be functional in order to stay alive. We have the unconsciousness mind, the ability to supress bad and/or damaging memories and events, automated processes we don't have to think of while we're living (such as breathing, blinking, the heart, not falling off your bed while in sleep, hell even dreams require some serious activity to make us stay sane and healthy).

Ask me, the brain is an extremely important machine, and because of it's complexity, it is hard to decypher every braincell's function.

Uh, no. Our existance is not becoming larger in any kind of sence, we learn stuff, we figure it out. Just because we find another galaxy it doesn't mean the universe becomes bigger, only bigger in the sence of our new findings. I.e., the world isn't growing when you step out of your room, only your knowledge grows. Secondly, I am not aware of any massmurder by anyone against those who claimed the world was round.

I mean, you describe our knowledge growing, yes of course it does. We now know human activity really hurts our planet. The more we know the better, the less risk we can take in future scenarios. But you can not say that there is no end to "it all", because no one knows. The difference is that today you will be laughed at if you claim something beyond any logical thinking. So, what about my imagination? Sure, I have tons of imagination, but that doesn't say anything. Everybody on this forum have one form of imagination or another, but like I said, it doesn't change anything.

But hey, use some imagination and maybe the earth is flat after all? :D

I was talking about the historical facts, and hundreds of years of religious philosophy and thought. I was asking you what facts you have to support your theory of existance.

Approved in what manner? You can be homosexual/lesbian all you want today. It's rather not a very big issue for me, but like I said, there are those who would rather consentrate on homosexuality rather than other more pressing issues. I give you that one.

Or, the very fact that humans are overconsuming the planet and dropping billions of garbage in the environment because there are too many of us. Maybe we should have listened, and maybe we would live in a symbiosis with nature today?

And sex is probably one of the most overrated things in the world today. Personally, I don't oppose it (except animal sex and other obscure sex, stuff I would be banned forever for if mentioned here, this you can not talk me out of), but, when you finally find the man/woman you love, and decide to live with him/her for the rest of your life, then what is left for you to share?

Firstly, Jews do have a place in the Bible as God's chosen people, but on a smaller scale, anybody who does good in his or her life will be rewarded with heaven. You can't say that you want democracy without practicing democracy, i.e., it isn't enough to just "believe in the Bible", you'll have to act accordingly.

Of course we have. When, ever in human history, have we had all of which we have today? We merely had paper and pen. Today, we are much more aware of things, we can calculate, we can theorise, we can communicate in a far more effective way than we ever could.

But just because we can do that it doesn't mean that we will know everything in the future, or that everything we know today isn't wrong. How can you be so sure, if you say we have been wrong in the past, that you somehow know how it really is? Do you have any basis, i.e. any readable text on which you base your perspective of existance?

What is the need of creation and physical form according to you? Why spirituality?

Or, we are 3-dimensional matter stuck in time, in a universal loop that never ends for some reason. What is the reason for sepparation between different forms of matter in this universe? Why can't we be just one "thing"? Why must there be planets, moons, water, uranium and so on?

Great. Adolph Hitler escaped justice after all...

Yes, because we are governed by law we can not change the universe - why else would there be laws in the first place? You are right that humans percieve reality differently (like how do I know red is red to you, and not blue?), but we certainly don't change anything with our minds, only with whatever action we have in mind through our physical body, so to speak.

However, there are parapshychology that theorises about the next step of human biological development, i.e. the use of our minds as direct communication with our surroundings. There are some serious experiments done that leans towards a possible evolutional step to "see" other places without being there, affecting things with the mind, and so on. Of course, parapshychology is not so welcomed by the established scientific community, but I think it is a pretty interesting theory.

And I am asking you to further discuss why you believe in what you believe in. Is it Bhuddism? Or Hinduism? I can tell that you believe in a form of spirituality, then what is that? For example, what do you think will happen when you die? Is there a heaven or hell? Are you reborn? Etc...

But that is the point of this very debate! What should I learn from? What basis? I can't just sit down and meditate because I don't know how to meditate. Where do I start? What should I think of?

If you want me to learn then you must provide me with the material - If I want to learn you about my religion, then I recommend you read the Bible. What do you recommend me to read?

Firstly, I'm on the left side of the political scale, so obviously I despise Hitler and what he did.

Secondly, I used Hitler as an example. You said many leaders said they knew much more about existance than their people, and I pointed out that Hitler himself said he was some kind of chosen one. Well, not literally...

Now, you said that I must be able to distinguish between good and evil. Then let me ask you: Do you?

I do distinguish between good and evil, because it is a form of supermorality as described in the Bible. You can not kill because God says so. Then, I can not kill because I would go to jail and become condemned for the rest of my life. But how can you know what's good and what's bad? What do you base your worldview on? I mean, according to your belief, you can kill how many people you want, you wouldn't be punished in the afterlife, right? Your belief don't state why you can or can not kill a person. So you can not say that I must be able to know what is good and what is bad if you don't base your belief on any moral ground.

In short, in my belief Hitler is bad because he killed a lot of people. But in your belief, Hitler is neither good or bad - he is just as much good or bad as you or me.

Well Duc, i don't blame or point the finger. I

[Khan]

You know I'm not sure. For some reason ever since I came to university my patience with idiots has almost evaporated. I thought it was just a phase of viciousness, but it's been a while now. Ah well. *Shrug*

Thats understandable, university is the worst place to come if you hate hearing stupid opinions. If I hear one more George Bush - Hitler comparison I'm gonna punch the retarded girl in my seminar who keeps making them... not to mention her "I bet one day we study Macdonalds" out burst, what does that even mean???

I never knew one girl could fill me with so much hate, ho hum.