How can battles be realized with shields?

[UsulSK]

Hi,

I was always wandering how house-to-hous-battles are fought in the Dune Universe outside of Arrakis.  The book says, that the Atreides had air and waterpower on Caladan.  But that would mean, that they shoot.  But I thought, that you cant shoot through shields???  And how can any unit with a shield shout anyway THROUGH the shield?  Can someone explain the how battles are supposed to work?

[Mahdi]

Same way they worked before guns were invented.

[UsulSK]

No, that cant be, because Leto said that they hat ships and airforce on Caladan.  So how can they fight, without firing?

[UsulSK]

Looks like no one has an idea.  This is maybe the weak point in the Dune universe.  Frank Herbert should have thought more about that.

[Mahdi]

"Leto said that they hat ships and airforce on Caladan.  So how can they fight, without firing?"

First, he said he ruled with air and sea power, not with an airforce and a navy.  

Second, you would need planes and ships to transport you or your troops around the world.

Third, if your sheild failed, you'd sure as hell want to have something to fight with.

Fourth, as is seen in Dune, only about half of the ornithopters are shielded.  If you think about it, that would make sense.  You probably can't fire a bullet through the inside of a shield any easier than you can through the outside of one, so having unsheilded ornithopters would permit you to have lasguns and projectile weapons mounted on your fighters in order to take out buildings (once again, if you look at Dune, only the palace in arakeen is sheilded.  It is to be beleived that shielding an entire building would be pretty damn expensive) and firing bulets at your enemy would really piss off the troops, whether they are shielded or not.

[EchnaDarr]

If the Palace is shielded, why hasn't there been a Lunatic with a lasgun to sacrifice himself and become a martyr, by blowing up the harkonnen palace. He'd be dead, the Palace would be gone, as well as a large part of Arrakeen. But at least they would be rid of the harkonnens.

[garth]

That would be a violation of the Great Convention and whoever was behind that plot would be punished by the full force of the Imperial Sardaukar.

[UsulSK]

Merry Christmas!!!

So if unshielded force like ornithopters take out buildings, how can they be beated?  Probably only by another unshielded force (since they would have to fire).  So whats the whole sense in shielding then?  And why should an ornithopther carry lasguns anyway, if they never know for sure if something is shielded?

[Mahdi]

Actually, lasgun/shield interaction isn't against the great convention.  It's sub-atomic, not atomic, and is used several times in Dune.

As for the Hakronnens, there Keep on Gedi Prime most lkley isn't shielded unless absolutly necessary.  Not only do the HArkonnens themsleves live near the top, but there are no entrances for at least a dozen story's, so no lunatic could get into the building.

Plus, how is a lunatic going to afford a lasgun?  They are the most expensive weapons around.

"So if unshielded force like ornithopters take out buildings, how can they be beated?  Probably only by another unshielded force (since they would have to fire).  So whats the whole sense in shielding then?"

Because not all Ornithopters are used just for war.  You want to g somewhere, you hop into an ornithopter.  If its shielded, then your pretty safe.  In the middle of a war you'd have the shields up on troop transports and thopters with soldiers in them so they won't get shot down, same with important people.  

[Usul]

Not much point in having sheilds then because the only projectile weponry used is lasguns and that would mean that with sheilds your dead and had no chance of fighting back. Without sheilds you can fight back have less chance of being hit and propably won't be destroyed by one shot (unlike with sheilds) so sheilds on ornithopters are realy a weakness

[Timsvs]

2 words for uz "stone burner"

[Mahdi]

Not much point in having sheilds then because the only projectile weponry used is lasguns

Lasguns arn't prujectile weapons, and due to both there extreme cost and danger, they are rarely used.

"and that would mean that with sheilds your dead and had no chance of fighting back."

If your shield got hit with a lasgun, your shield wouldn't jsut be dead, but so would the person who fired the lasgun and possibly everyone ont he planet.

[Ligic_Tha_Master]

But what if someone would fire a shielded unit whit a laser gun, and throw the thing away. : ::)

[quoudam72]

Some of you guys just do not get it do you either way the interaction with the sheild being fired apon by the  lasgun causes sub-atomic fusion resulting in the explosion that we are talking about. It does not matter what lasgun fired on what sheild the result is still the same.  :)

[Mahdi]

But what if someone would fire a shielded unit whit a laser gun, and throw the thing away. : ::)

Yeah, I'm sure that would protect you when the world blows up.  Or maybe you'd get lucky and it'd only blow up a couple square kilometers.  I know I can through a gun that far, and faster than the speed of light.

[nemafakei]

Infantry is the key. Infantry are useful because of the fact that they can attack through shields with mel

[Ligic_Tha_Master]

Okay okay i'm sorry. Forgive me my ignorance.

[Usul]

What I ment was that apart from lasguns no weapon that could damage an in flight ornithopter is used in the books so shields on an ornithopters are usless

[Mahdi]

Except for the transport of people and weaponry, and unshielded ones, or jsut thopters that flip on and off there shields, which fire weapons into buildings.

[nemafakei]

Do remember that standard ballistic weaponry still exists - it is just not used very much.

[Mahdi]

It is considered antique weaponry, and is never sued.  That's why it was such a surpise when the Baron sued it on Dune, and t was only good for sealing the caaves.  Other than that it was useless.

[dportela]

Yeah, I was suprised when they SUED it too.  ;D

[Mahdi]

You do know that I can make your life on these forums a living hell, right?

[exatreide]

Settle Mahdi. We know you have been a little  agitated latly about the dieing of the threads, We know dont we  dportela? Sorry about that Mahdi. Wont happpen again, Will it dportela?

[Vanguard3000]

You have to remember that, because of the Great Convention, and the rules of Kanly, House-to-House "battles" were often nothing more than gladiatorial battles between hosue leaders.  Some "battles" even took the form of Cheops (like chess) tournaments.

When fighting full-scale wars, there were two main types of troops:  those who used shields and hand-to-hand weapons such as the knife, sword, or kindjal, and those who preferred ranged weapons.  The gun-toting soldiers couldn't use shields because they'd be microwaved alive in them if they fired their weapon.  Shields emit small amounts of radiation when struck.  If that's on the inside, it can become exponentially so, since it bounces off the other sides of the shield.

So that's why regular guns could still be used.  Although the importance of Swordsmen and personal combat were a much bigger factor, since these guys were essentially invulnerable to guns (save "slow-pellet stunners", which were seldom used).

Also, because of the risk of shield-lasgun intersections, lasguns were rarely used, despite their amazing potential.  They also cost a buttload of cash, so only the richest of lunatics could afford one.  ;)