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[Vanguard3000]

Hmm... it could be like Teg is seeing himself within himself. Remember how the Bene Gesserit women had that place where they could not look when taking the water of life? I think that's the place. I could be wrong.

[Mahdi]

They don't turn into a kwsiatz Haderach by looking into the "hall of mirrors", they become vegetables. Mentats operate on pure logic. They use the logic to project possible scenario's and the results of which. Basically, wehat happens with the hall of mirror's thing is they go too deep with there logic and the scenarios and fry there brains. They get trapped looking at allt he scenarios and such. Thats the best way I can explain it without re-reading the books.

[Vanguard3000]

Hmm... I think I rmemeber that now. I thought there was a way out of it though. Didn't Hayt go through something like that?

I'm due for a re-reread as well.

[TMA_1]

you missed the point mahdi. They did turn into vegitables, but why? it is because they went too far. Too far into their mechanical brain. This is one of the keys to enlightenment in order to see in many places at once. Their minds try fleetingly to enter into prescient thought, but cant handle it. Paul the mentat,bene gesserit father, all around super human was able to go beyond because of his genetic makeup, and the spice melange which enhanced his abilities to see beyond.

[Andrew]

I started to read "The Dosadi Experiment" and then realized its a sequel so now I have to order "Whipping star" and read that first.

As I was reading it I noticed he uses "Galach" as a language and that his chapter wise seperating is very similiar to those of Dune books.

Does Frank use the same chapter seperation as in Dune for most books? Does he use elements from Dune in other books?(or vice versa)

What books shoudl I read first? these are what i can get:

THE DOSADI EXPERIMENT

THE SANTAROGA BARRIER

Eye

THE WHITE PLAGUE

THE GOD MAKERS

THE LAZARUS EFFECT;BY...AND BILL RANSOM

MAN OF TWO WORLDS;BY...AND BRIAN HERBERT - already ordered.

THE ASCENSION FACTOR;BY...& BILL RANSOM

as you can notice my library does not have whipping star(or other good books) so yah.

LOL, also at my library is:

Dune : the Butlerian Jihad / [sound recording] :

by Herbert, Brian.

Audio Renaissance, p2002.

Description: 14 sound cassettes (ca 22 hrs.)

Notes: sound cassettes.

Unabridged.

Additional Authors: Anderson, Kevin J. (Kevin James), 1962-

Brick, Scott.

Performers: Read by Scott Brick.

shoudl I get it?? :D

[Vanguard3000]

Every book I've read by FH use the same chapter separation (a quote at the beginning). And there are a few time where Herbert recycles ideas. There are chairdogs in The Tactful Saboteur, a short story based on Jorj X. McKie and the BuSab universe, for example.

[Andrew]

Interesting, I think I'll look for more books at my university by Frank.

Does any other book have sandworms? ;)

shit got an error..

Dune

Universal Studios Home Video 2002

Could this be a long edition of lynch movie?(the one I own was made in 1998)

[Andrew]

Can anyone tell me what the "woo" is in this article have to do with CoD?

This is what is mentioned about CoD:

Heck, you could even notice The Woo from an extra during Sci Fi Channel's movie "Children of Dune." Who knew that would be adopted by intergalactic freedom fighters of the future?

Where abouts in the mini does a character do The Woo?

Article can be found

http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20030508/living/853.shtml

[Duneguy]

yo andrew, from expirence i STRONGLY suggest finding The Jesus Incident by bill ransom and frank, before reading The Lazarus Effect. you get a better feel oof the lazarus effect since a lot is derived from there.. two excellent books IMHO

[TMA_1]

read destination void before that. it is the best book in the series in my opinion. it sets everything up nicely.

[TMA_1]

argh, I just believe totally different vanguard. there are too many of the same ideas for them to be recycled. Not only that but brian actually messaged me concerning that question and said that there might of been a connection and that he would research it out of his own interest.

Every book I've read by FH use the same chapter separation (a quote at the beginning). And there are a few time where Herbert recycles ideas. There are chairdogs in The Tactful Saboteur, a short story based on Jorj X. McKie and the BuSab universe, for example

there are all sorts of things in the whipping star universe, as well as others like the pandora trilogy. usually recycling ideas goes along with placing a name or object from another series and putting it on a totally different object,place, or person. or it can even be exactly the same thing, but the machine in the other book would be a tad bit different

just too many exact technologies, languages, cultural links to be passed off in my opinion.

as always though, you are usually right vanguard. dman you.hehe ;)

[Vanguard3000]

You're suggesting the BuSab universe is the Duniverse in a different time? That can't be. Look at all of the different races in the DOsadi Experiment. What happened to them? Anyway, there's no problem with authours recycling ideas and names. Just look at Ex's fan fiction, for example. Ryan Sharpie is a very busy man. ;)

I'm about halfway through Destination Void. It's pretty good, but I think it's a bit too advanced for me I understand the plot, but I feel as though I'm not really grasping all of their consciousness debates. Also, I'm wondering if Mr. Herbert was a paranoiac. ;)

[Tio_Holtzmann]

This is a kick-ass thread guys, keep it up!

TMA, you know that you said Mentats could near the multiplicity of the KH but couldn't handle it. Is that related to the start of Dune, where everyone thinks Paul is a Mentat and not the KH, and this kind of persists until the spice gets to him? In the second book he's called the mentat emperor. So maybe the combination of genes, mentat...ism (?) and spice was the right combination.

I suppose the only Woo like thingy in CoD could count as when the Atreides do the prana-bindu superspeedy thing. But that's faster rather than slower. Is prana-bindu actually like that in the books? Sounds more like Teg when he gets probed and goes superfly.....

And worms are mentioned in Space Quest III. great game. "Visit Scenic Arrakis!" postcard.

Btw, I thought Heretics and ChapterHouse were the most genius of the Dune books ever written, even though I kinda lost the plot around GEoD!

[Tio_Holtzmann]

Oh yeah, I have a question. In Children of Dune, how does Leto end up in the hands of Namri and Sabiha? Did Jessica and Gurney order him kidnapped and spiced up cause they thought it would benefit everyone, but they didn't realise that the Cast-Out were up to no good? I can't remember exactly how that bit happened.

[Nick]

I also have a few questions:

Firstly couldnt Paulus Atredies be grown up in a Axol Tank from the body or the blood on the bulls horns?

and 2ndly what animals were on dune before they were introduced by Kynes?

[Andrew]

I also have a few questions:

Firstly couldnt Paulus Atredies be grown up in a Axol Tank from the body or the blood on the bulls horns?

and 2ndly what animals were on dune before they were introduced by Kynes?

1. Most likely, as most other people coudl have been.

2. Maud'Dib (or desert mouse I think) I'm thinking there were some type of birds, and thats about all I know.

[TMA_1]

Cloning is banned, so no they couldnt have made a clone of the Duke Paulus. A ghola is a corpse that is reanimated. It is the whole body which is put in the tank, from there on the tissues are regenrated and revived. Not only that, reviving somebody into a ghola, especially royalty would be insanity, and a moral breakdown of that house.

Animals have been introduced long before kynes made it to arrakis. Most of the animal life actually is terran in origin. thousands of years of migration back and forth from the planet did this. Even shui hulud is a transfered animal, via the sandtrout. It says that they were placed on arrakis by some previous intelligence.

[TMA_1]

yeah paul was actually going to go into training on the mentat homeworld. It was expected of him to be fully trained as one, Duke Leto encurraged this. The point that mentats come close to a superconscious mind is just my opinion, but from what I can see it is true. In the thread I posted about the enlightened trinity, Mentat, Steersmen, and Bene Gesserit, I explained that these three have a sort of path towards a similar enlightenment. Paul himself was capable to be a mentat as it is said, he was trained in bene gesserit ways, and I like to call him the "bene Gesserit Father" after he took the water of life. Also because he took so much spice via the essance, it helped him massively to see beyond, many times greater so than the steersmen.

It is funny that paul is related to all three, check out my thread "enlightenment trinity" if it interests you. I am glad it is interesting to some people.hehehe :D

[Tio_Holtzmann]

But with gholas, can't you mix cells from different corpses together and then reanimate them? Isn't that how they got the last Duncan Idaho to have all the Duncanian memories?

And when Paul keeps seeing the future he tries to stop the jihad. Is that the future he was trapped by? The way I see it is, he saw that because that's what would happen and thought he could change, but it was the attempting to change it that actually brought it about?

Btw, what is the Mentat homeworld? I think in the film they say it's Bene Tleilax, but I suppose that's only for twisted Mentats.

And Paul wasn't actually the Fremen Messiah, that was just something planted by the missionaria protectiva and it kinda went outta control?

And now I can't do any more questions, cause my Dad wants my Dune book back! Finally got him reading, been great having more Dune discussions!

[TMA_1]

Gholas are just dead corpses placed in the axolotl tanks. their cells are then rebuilt. The way that they are altered and changed for specific tasks is that they are inplanted with different genetics that fit the profession they need. The memories were rediscovered by his mentat capabilities, mixed with a sudden tragic event that "jumpstarted" his brain into using his old memory stores.

remember that is just speculation and my opinion, I could be wrong.

This is how I feel about the future paul saw. He didnt realize that it couldnt be stopped. He was too afraid to take on the sandtrout suit and because of that, he was trapped into a future he couldnt stop. It wasent the act of trying tos top it, it was jest destiny that he couldnt escape. Leto II changed that though and enabled it so that he could change the various futures required for te golden path.

again that is just speculation, but I think it is a good idea of how it works.

Bene Tleilax was the original homeworld of the Mentats, but they eventually moved. Still there a renegade group of them still stayed, and these were the forefathers of the twisted mentats. soon the tleilaxu began to get involved in the lucrative business and created their own out of axolotl tanks. I cant remember currently where their current homeworld is. can anybody help me out with that?

Yeah the missionaria protectiva sent "missionaries" all over the known universe to primitive cultures, all preaching in different ways of a messiah that would come. Then when they finally succeeded in breeding the messiah, he would go from planet to planet, fulfilling the prophesies of all the people that the bene gesserit manipulated. It wasent as much as paul was a loose canon, he was but it is that any KH born would have been a loose canon. The bene gesserit made an extremely serious error. They thought that they could control something so powerful. Like most of frank herbert's books, he shows that when you create the whirlwind, you cannot control it, only watch your creation follow it's own paths. they were arrogant for thinking they could control something beyond their grasp.

Most of these answers are just speculation and opinion, I hope you find them interesting and of a little help. I really hope it does at least. thanks ya. :)

[Andrew]

Umm I'm missing something.

Spoiler for chapterhouse dune in relation to gholas

[hide]

The Teg ghola was not a corpse but only a few cells or so from his daughter scratching the back of his neck before he was killed by honored matres. Also Waff had cells from many different people in his "tube" that was inside his body.[/hide]

So gholas can come from cells and do not have to come from a corpse that is regenerated.

[TMA_1]

I indeed was wrong, but you can still see that it isnt cloning. His cells were regenerated, it was just himself being regenerated from his cells. Cloning infers a completely different process. Instead of a corpse, they just took his cells and instead of regrowing him from birth, just took the cells and grew them again. The thing with waff was a totally different issue than what Tio was asking. or I just got his question totally wrong. I was wrong about the body regeneration though, thank you for correcting me andrew. damn you.hehehehe ;) jk :)

[Andrew]

I thought you were right about the body regeneration?

I thought the original Duncan Ghola (Hayt) was a regenerated one. The Saudukar saved his corpse (with only a blow to the head I think), and I think they just regenerated the damaged material. (or thats what I beleive.)

I dont really know much about cloning, although gholas seem to be a close thing to them, they take cells and create an exact copy right?

[TMA_1]

though I might be wrong, this is how I have always seen it.

Cloning is where you go directly towards the DNA structure and use it for fertilization so that it will grow a new clone of something. there are many ways of cloning, but they all have to do with going directly towards the DNA.

A ghola is totally different. It is taking preexisting cells of a person and reviving them. Then these cells are altered and changed in the axolotl tank to form the various cells needed for the body structure. Basically instead of regrowing a creature from the genetic structure up, you are taking a creatures cells and either evitalizing them, or regrowing thme with those cells.

does this make any sense? if not then tell me.

[Andrew]

Not really. But you dont have to explain. :D