End of the World 2029

[GUNWOUNDS]

making a space dome on mars is not the same thing.

[GhostHunter]

It isn't predicting the future, its a calculation based upon current stats of Mars of how long it would take to make it Earth. There is no Ms. Cleo about that.

[GUNWOUNDS]

It isn't predicting the future, its a calculation based upon current stats of Mars of how long it would take to make it Earth. There is no Ms. Cleo about that.

once you begin the project of terraforming mars you are in effect predicting that you will be completed in 2600 years.

Construction companies that built new school buildings at my old university were like a year behind with their deadlines.

[Anathema]

Gunwounds why would you need to terraform a planet to make a self sufficient colony?

[ophiruslevus]

(remember in armageddon with bruce willis when they are about to launch the shuttle and one guy says "omg we are sitting on top of hundreds of pounds of rocket fuel all put together by the lowest bidder")

[GUNWOUNDS]

Gunwounds why would you need to terraform a planet to make a self sufficient colony?

I was just discussing terraforming because ghost brought it up.  But it would be nicer to have the planet terraformed would it not?  I wouldnt like the idea of my colony bubble imploding.  Having that possibility constantly looming over my head wouldnt be the best feeling.

Also constantly maintaining the base would be pretty resource intensive.  Terraforming the planet would eliminate the need for such power intensive colonies.  Also there are other things to consider like waste disposal, mining, manufacturing, and renewable resources, etc.  Mars could never be 100% independant unless it were terraformed.

But this thread is about the end of the world... and colonizing mars wont save us from a supernova.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Dont forget the nuclear bomb. ;D

Okay Gunwounds, here's a fact: there are more stars (=suns) in our universe than all the sands in all the beaches on earth!

When you hear such thing tou must think to your self, are we alone?? were the causes of our formation

[Jack Leaf]

Dude, let's just set our alarm clocks ring 2029 and see if the asteroid will hit us. :P

[ophiruslevus]

Ok, I'm dealing with a skeptic here...

You probably know that many science fiction books inspired people to invent stuf and thus fiction became a reality. You are bound to the world you see every day, i'll give you an example: you probably think life can only be formed by amino acids which combine to form other more complecated forms of life, now I want you to imagen life which are formed by silicon, yes the same silicon in your computer! sounds imagynary? well, that's what I want you to think, you can tell me it's complete nonescence but in some remote corner in the universe a living silicon composed creature may lie!

If you belive another form of life besides carbon based form of life may exist, you can reduce your "42 unavoidable conditions for the formation of life", or maybe to add more conditions, after all nither me nor you know how many conditions a silicon form of life needs. That's what i'm talking about, the uncertainty rules the universe and you shouldn't reject something just because you haven't saw/read/heard of it.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Ok, I'm dealing with a skeptic here...

You probably know that many science fiction books inspired people to invent stuf and thus fiction became a reality. You are bound to the world you see every day, i'll give you an example: you probably think life can only be formed by amino acids which combine to form other more complecated forms of life, now I want you to imagen life which are formed by silicon, yes the same silicon in your computer! sounds imagynary? well, that's what I want you to think, you can tell me it's complete nonescence but in some remote corner in the universe a living silicon composed creature may lie!

If you belive another form of life besides carbon based form of life may exist, you can reduce your "42 unavoidable conditions for the formation of life", or maybe to add more conditions, after all nither me nor you know how many conditions a silicon form of life needs. That's what i'm talking about, the uncertainty rules the universe and you shouldn't reject something just because you haven't saw/read/heard of it.

[nemafakei]

Yes, I think the best approach on those lines would be to keep an open mind about other forms (in the true sense of the word - not just examples), expecting that there will be things we shalln't imagine - but at the same time, that doesn't affect the original point - potential habitability for *us*.

[ophiruslevus]

I like to think

[GUNWOUNDS]

Just out of curiocity, are you a vegetarian? =)

Okay, now you've convinced me you know as well as I do and possably even more, so speaking with you is gonna be fun.

There is a possability life didn't formed here on earth, they may have traveled on a comit and when it impacted earth it brough life into this world. Scientists did some reaserch and concluded life can survive the tough journey in space, they can even survive the impact of a comit with a planet! in conclution, when the flame of life lights, its very hard to be extinguished.

Now we may follow your assumption, life formed on the planet earth only!

Another fact is that life can advance from planet to planet.

I think you know what i'm getting at, life can travel from planet earth and colonize other planets, thus life exist in other places besides earth.

Well no not a vegetarian but i do try to limit my intake of saturated fat as i dont want to die of a stroke at 50-60.

About the comet thing.

[ophiruslevus]

Hehe, you won this battle, but not the war.

Here's an important fact: Whenever you encounter an obstacle ---> go to religion!

What if god created life in many places and left them to evolve on their own?

Or what if an ancient form of life spreaded life throughout the universe? we know we strive for this!

And by the way, why do you think life is so diversed on earth?? I'll tell you why,

Once a basic form of life is created, its like opening a Pandora box, all it needs is time and it will evolve to a random life forms, the shape of this life form has little to do with the environment it lives in, you can see in africa or in the rain forests, mainly under water all kinds of forms of life which are so different from each other, you must wonder how did they get so diversed if they live in the same environment?!?

Overall, it prooves that even in the most extreme conditions such as a planet engorged with radiation, there may be life which will develop thick layers of skin in order to protect their inner organs, and don't tell me the radiation will pass through because I know for sure our atmosphere provides protection which is equaled to only six meters of concrete wall and that's enough to prevent dangerous radiation from entering.

In conclution, life is stubborn, just like me.

Ophirus

[Dante]

So while "panspermia" is an interesting theory....

[GUNWOUNDS]

Hehe, you won this battle, but not the war.

Here's an important fact: Whenever you encounter an obstacle ---> go to religion!

Here is an important fact :

[Dante]

What am i talking about?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Just because the chances are small, doesn't mean that they are non existant. There is little possibility of either watches or tools forming by chance, but that doesn't mean that it is impossible. It just hasn't happened yet.

We arent talking about possible or impossible. We arent discussing infinite possibilities.

[Acriku]

Here is an important fact :  Whenever you encounter an obstacle ---> go to science fiction !!!  :P

as you read later on... i am not trying to debate religion or stuff some doctrine down your throat.  I am merely discussing intelligent design.  Which by the way you seem to understand and accept.  And that is good because understanding intelligent design is the first step to understanding the universe.

Misunderstanding the universe would be a better word to describe it.

He did .. its called Earth.  Whats wrong with earth?  Does it make you unhappy to think that life started here?  I bet your just curious right?  Well no harm in that.  Just make sure you think things through.  Dont just imagine things and then leave them to be.

Well consider the infinite amount of time prior to creating life on Earth. Seems kind of strange for God to create life once in his infinite lifetime.

What am i talking about?  Well it is sort of like if you went out into a field and you found a wristwatch.  Now would you just suppose that the gears and lens and hands and springs all shaped themselves due to infinite chance?  Sure if you roll enough dice and wait for a few billion odd years a wristwatch ought to form itself, correct?  Hmmm sounds silly right?  Yep.  Completely silly.... no, instead you would guess that the watch was created by intelligent design.  Something higher than the watch itself.

If we look at a watch, we realize how complicated it is and therefore begin to think that someone made it correct? Let's extend this analogy to God him/her/itself and begin to think that someone made him/her/it! You see, you can say that life looks too complicated to have not come from a designer, but using the same logic you can say that God is too complicated to have not come from a designer. So, who created God? An old question, indeed. Now, aside from that you must also ask yourself what evidence do you or anyone else have that repeatedly suggests that it was designed by an intelligent designer? I don't want to be presumptuous and say that what you're calling intelligent design in life is pure conjecture.

Another example that some philosphers use is that what if you had a prisoner about to be executed by firing squad.  And 100  expert marksmen all looked through their scopes, aimed and fired at the prisoner.  However the prisoner lived.  Now the prisoner could attribute his life to mere chance.  However wouldnt it make more sense to think that some sort of intelligence was behind this act?  Perhaps someone loaded all the rifles with blanks.  Or maybe someone convinced all 100 marksmen to miss on purpose.  Surely intelligent design is a better explanation  than chance in these examples.

Aside from guessing it was intelligent design, it would be better to provide evidence for such a grand assertion instead. *crickets chirping*

The same goes for our solar system.  The deflector planets, the orbit stabilzers, the sun and earth at the age, etc, etc, and we can think smaller too... there are so many things that if they were off by a fraction of a degree we wouldnt exist.  If the chemicals in our bodies didnt react with each other, if the speed of light was changed, so many things point to intelligent design.  Even many astronomers and physicists say that altho they dont have a particular faith... they feel someone has "monkeyed" with things.  Things seem to be so much as they should be that it seems too good to be true.  Now this term "monkeyed" to me means the scienctists are beating around the bush and trying to avoid saying intelligent design directly as not to found "religious" and incur the stigma that accompanies that in the scientific realm.  However, direct religion and doctrine is something further down the road that you should embark on when you feel comfortable to do so.  In the meantime, i will be discussing intelligent design in my responses.  And the first step to understanding the universe is realizing that it has all the qualities of intelligent design.

If things were different early on, of course it's possible that we wouldn't exist. But because they behaved as they did and as they were, we do exist. You're confusing things. We exist because everything fell into place. When life has the ingredients to populate, it will. If the Earth had been closer to the sun, life might have been different now. Human species may never have existed. But that's not to say it's intelligent design that we exist anyhow. Think of it like this: A man hits a golfball into the green course, trying to hit it in. It lands on a certain blade of grass. He looks at that blade in amazement and exclaims: "Oh my! Out of the billion of blades of grass, the ball landed on this one! What are the odds!" You can see his folly. The ball is going to land on a blade of grass no matter what, so it is no amazement to whatever blade it does hit. You're looking at the human species and saying that what are the odds that we exist! If one thing was changed, we would not exist, how amazing! It must be intelligent design! No, since the ingredients did fall into place billions of years ago, life happened as we know it. If something changed, and caused life to go another route in evolution, I wouldn't doubt that if life reaches the level of intelligence as we are it would exclaim how amazing it is that they exist.

However one thing you need to never get confused is that Evolution somehow works towards some goal.  Evolution just is just random changes.... it doesnt go towards some super being.  It doesnt go towards improvement.  It just happens through DNA recombination and mutation. They teach you that in Molecular Genetics 101.

That's right, the mutations are seemingly random however evolution has a mechanism as the theory goes, called natural selection - which is not random.

    ALSO ... Natural selection doesnt go towards "supreme" improvement either.  You see, on an island during a wet season when certain nuts grow bigger.... the birds with bigger beaks will be selected and thus birds on average during that season will have bigger beaks.  When it becomes much dryer and the average nut size shrinks.. so does the average beak size of the birds. No super bird is formed.

This is correct, natural selection is just what happens when animals cannot survive under the conditions given to them. No goal, just survival.

  SO much of darwinism is incorrect that only people with higher level educations realize it while the layman is stuck with the wrong idea... as unfortunately basic darwinism is taught in lower grades while the rebuttals are only taught in higher education or those interested enough to seek it on their own.

Well this is new news! So much is incorrect? That's strange, considering how well supported it is and how completely wrong you are.

ALso Darwin himself admitted that his theories would totally fall apart if  IRREDUCIBLE COMPLEXITY could be proven.  And it has been proven.

No it has not. Where is your support to say such a thing? It has been suggested that the eye is irreducibly complex, and it was not supported by any evidence, merely conjecture. Saying an organ or part of the body is irreducibly complex is highly presumptuous and I've never seen evidence supporting such a thing. You are wrong, sir.

You see, Darwin created his theories at a time when the cell was mysterious.  He had no way of knowing that there were certain parts of the cell that were so vital that if it were removed (reduced) the cell would cease to function.  Thus, the cell is irreducibly complex.  I am out of time but i will discuss more of this later Ophirus.  Nice to find someone interesting to talk to.

Darwin formed his theory before genes were well known, and that is interesting because when genes were finally well known, it only added to the support of his theory. About the cell being irreducibly complex, you are going at it by all-of-a-sudden removing parts of a cell and expecting it to still function. If you look at it from the perspective of the forward evolution of the cell, parts of the cell don't suddenly appear in it with a function and value to the cell. They evolve, in other words the parts of the cell change and can change function which is a possibility of explaining irreducible complexity.

[Dante]

We arent talking about possible or impossible. We arent discussing infinite possibilities. Sure maybe there is a possibility that a purple dragon named Baloo transformed himself into the universe.  Anything is possible right. However this leads us nowhere. We are talking about what is Most likely.  Most likely. Most Reasonable.  And that is intelligent design. Just as the watch could be formed by any number of infinite possibilities.... the most reasonable is that it was created by intelligent design.

I can't believe that you of all people are appealing to reason... Well fortunately for me the universe is not a watch, and frankly I don't think the metaphor is very good.

And at one time there were no raw materials for shaping solar systems either.

So where did the raw materials for the intelligence in 'intelligent design' come from?

point of view is irrelevant..... doesnt matter whose point of view it is...God's point of view, your point of view, my dog's point of view, the angel's point of view..... we would not exist in this universe if he had not created the universe in such a way to support our life.  Saying that the universe hinges on our point of view is rather silly and egotistical.  Trust me... if you die tomorrow.... the universe will still be here.

1) Prove it.

2) I didn't say that the universe depends on your point of view, though that's an argument for later, I meant that your perception of the universe depends on your point of view. People who are religious will clearly see it differently from those who are not.

Chance is not anything. Most acclaimed thinkers will tell you that chance is a negative entity. It is hollow. It is not any positive force that creates. Saying chance creates something is meaningless. Chance has no positive or creative force. Saying chance created the universe is meaningless.

You're going to have to do better than that to convince me. Evidence would be nice.

Thats a red herring. I never mentioned religions... i said intelligent design. That in no way references a specific God or religion.

You can perhaps justify the argument that something intelligent created the universe without reference to possible supreme being/s?

But also even-handed, especially since nothing can really be proven. Not yet.

this adds nothing to the discussion and promotes ambiguity... something we are trying to eliminate. There ARE things we can prove and disprove.  Also many martian rocks found on earth soil were estimated to have taken 16 million years to arrive here. hmmm.... 16 million years worth of Gamma irradiation.. and thats just for Mars.... its exponentially worse for intergalactic travel as the rock would get hit by several different suns along its path for billions of years. And nucleotides that our DNA is composed of are EXTREMELY FRAGILE.... *crosses panspermia off the list* ... see how easy that was?

Lets just go through that last bit again, yes?

"And nucleotides that our DNA is composed of are EXTREMELY FRAGILE.... "

"And nucleotides that our DNA is composed of are EXTREMELY FRAGILE.... "

And didn't I say

As we know it, perhaps. Life has a way of adapting to hostile conditions. We won't have seen this particular example, as we have never come across identical conditions on Earth to study. Just because there are no examples here, does not mean that no samples exist.

Of course I'm not saying that life definately came from outer, or even inner, space; personally I find it a rather unlikely theory, not least because any life form capable of surviving in outer space would most likely be killed by conditions here on Earth. That and life form with genetic material capable of withstanding such conditions would pass on said material to anything it evolved into. The theory of life passing from planet to planet via asteroids or comets is unlikely, but shouldn't be discounted.

Just because life as we know it cannot travel via comets, or is unlikely to, does not mean that life elsewhere cannot. Non carbon-based, perhaps.

Dont flatter yourself.....i was directing my earlier comments towards ophirus as the questions were originally his and not yours. Ask your own questions and bring up your own material instead of mimicking others and you will be addressed accordingly.

Perhaps you can point to the person that I'm mimicking? Am I copying anyone, taking material from anyone else? No, I'm responding to you, much as I dislike to do so. Makes me feel all dirty...

If you wish to hear me explain how Darwin is flagrantly incorrect, dont expect a personal response, you will have to wait for it as it unravels at the appropriate time in my discussion with Ophirus. This is due to the fact that i have no interest in direct discussion with you as i assume anything that you will say after this post will either be a negative rephrasing of my comments or your classical "nuh-uh" statements. Also Ophirus has a cool easy-going attitude about him while you have a "picador" type mentality which is more interested in "tit for tatting" with me than actual discussion. So dont be surprised if you feel ignored later on in this thread as you have been earlier.

You like Ophirus because he comes up with

Okay, now you've convinced me you know as well as I do and possably even more, so speaking with you is gonna be fun.

Hehe, you won this battle, but not the war.

I, on the other hand, am not intimidated by your status as a blowhard and have dealt with your arguments before. My attitude towards you has been formed from months of insults, veiled and otherwise, directed towards me, so I find it little wonder that I just want to cut the crap and get straight to the business of arguing every single point that you put forward. The structure of the arguments is based primarily on the fact that long replies are easier to deal with in smaller pieces, but also because I just don't like you and I don't waste time structuring them nicely.

"This is due to the fact that i have no interest in direct discussion with you as i assume anything that you will say after this post will either be a negative rephrasing of my comments or your classical "nuh-uh" statements."

I note that you seem to be unable of quoting any examples of this behaviour. And you don't like talking to me? Do you have any idea how much I hate responding to anything you write? It's just so painful knowing that people like you exist...

Get to Darwin. If you don't, the assumption is that you can't.

[GUNWOUNDS]

"get to darwin" eh?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Misunderstanding the universe would be a better word to describe it.

Right because the "correct" way to understand the unverse is already laid out in text books right?" Chuckle.

[ophiruslevus]

An old man once sayed: "Arguing in the internet is like running for the special-olimpics, even if you win you're still retarded."

Come on, we're here to have fun and enjoy good conversations, so stop it before someone close this topic.

Lets be open minded for a second, if our solar sistem was built for us and we're alone in the galaxy, why just the galaxy?..

the whole universe was built for us! lets just say its a fact.

Now we need to go back to the very begining, the moment the universe formed. It's a nice story, about the little war betwin the matter vs. anti-matter, but I want to focus on the moment matter defeted anti-matter, in that exact moment when pure energy converted to matter (the opposit action is burning wood, then matter converts to energy) the fate of the universe was determined: the place the galaxies would be, the exact time our sun would be created, even us... There's an interesting theory about multy-verse, it says our universe isn't the only one but there are many pre-determined universes out there. I mean, we all know our universe expands, so it must expand to something, a void, a nothing, a place which contains other universes which expand too, and if such universes exist THEY contain other life forms! nothing killed us yet, why should somethig kill the creatures there?

Hmmm.. or maybe that whole multy-verse was created for us! ::)

[GUNWOUNDS]

A old man once sayed: "Arguing in the internet is like running for the special-olimpics, even if you win you're still retarded."

Come on, we're here to have fun and enjoy good conversations, so stop it before someone close this topic.

Lets be open minded for a second, if our solar sistem was built for us and we're alone in the galaxy, why just the galaxy?..

the whole universe was built for us! lets just say its a fact.

Now we need to go back to the very begining, the moment the universe formed. It's a nice story, about the little war betwin the matter vs. anti-matter, but I want to focus on the moment matter defeted anti-matter, in that exact moment when pure energy converted to matter (the opposit action is burning wood, then matter converts to energy) the fate of the universe was determined: the place the galaxies would be, the exact time our sun would be created, even us... There's an interesting theory about multy-verse, it says our universe isn't the only one but there are many pre-determined universes out there. I mean, we all know our universe expands, so it must expand to something, a void, a nothing, a place which contains other universes which expand too, and if such universes exist THEY contain other life forms! nothing killed us yet, why should somethig kill the creatures there?

Hmmm.. or maybe that whole multy-verse was created for us! ::)

See dante ?

[GUNWOUNDS]