Is Star Trek an example of communism?

[Caid Ivik]

Good. About your "Three Fundaments" I already post an answer to our special thread, here I'll criticize you specially. Like there surely is a commodity trade in space, as ie dilithium or latinuum can't be made by replicators, so they are forming what we call "wealth" or "capital" there. I think without some dilithium, you can't extract energy for replicators, engine and all that stuff they have, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[Tako]

Now let's take a closer look at the issue discussed in this topic...

There is no direct information on condition #1 (since we were never told directly whether the economy of the Federation is planned or market-based), but there is overwhelming evidence that the Federation does indeed have a planned economy. First, we know they no longer use money. That's enough to exclude the possibility of a market economy. Second, we never see any signs of the existence of any private companies. There are no advertisements, no company logos and no mention of any objects being made by a specific company. It can only be concluded that the means of production are state-owned.

there are companies such as shops an d caf

[Edric O]

Good. About your "Three Fundaments" I already post an answer to our special thread, here I'll criticize you specially.

You really shouldn't just throw everything related to socialism in that topic, you know... But we already have a discussion about that via IM.

Like there surely is a commodity trade in space, as ie dilithium or latinuum can't be made by replicators, so they are forming what we call "wealth" or "capital" there.

Of course, but there is no privately owned dilithium in the Federation, and latinum has value only to some non-Federation species (like the Ferengi).

there are companies such as shops and caf

[Edric O]

By the way, you can notice that Star Trek gives examples of several different economic and/or political systems:

The Federation (especially humans) - socialism (with some communist elements)

The Ferengi - capitalism (a very pure form of capitalism)

The Klingons - feudalism

The Romulans - fascism

The Cardassians - military dictatorship

Interestingly, the Dominion and the Borg don't really fit into any human classification of political or economic systems, because their society is founded on highly advanced technology: the Dominion has its genetic engineering that created the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta, while the Borg have their nanoprobes and implants that make the hive mind possible.

The Borg, by the way, are illogical. I'm surprised no Vulcan ever noticed this. The Borg are obsessed with assimilating other species. They seem to have no other purpose in life. They certainly don't care about their own well-being (which doesn't make sense). This is the main reason why the Borg aren't communist. A communist society would be preoccupied with the well-being of its own members, and it wouldn't be able to "assimilate" anyone.

[Anathema]

Actually I would say that the Dominion is a very totalitatian dictatorship and a theocracy.

I also disagree that the Borg are illogical. The Borg think that that assimilation is their way of evolution; assimilating others improves the collective as a whole and ensures the continuation of the collective. The only thing I can think of being illogical is that they rely only on assimilating individuals, instead of actually creating the organic material themselves by cloning. "Members" of the collective are just tiny screws and bolts of a much larger whole, survival of the whole is the only issue and the individual is completely unimportant, as it doesn't even exist in the Borg.

About the Romulans, I'd like to note that there is far to little information given to determin wether they're fascist (unless it's in the movie Nemesis, wich I haven't seen). All we know about Romulan state is that many terms from the old Roman Republic (or more specific, the empire) were copied without ever explaining this, and the Roman society was at most proto fascist.

[Edric O]

Actually I would say that the Dominion is a very totalitatian dictatorship and a theocracy.

The Dominion is a very loose empire, though. It allows most of its subjects the freedom to run their own worlds how they see fit, as long as they comply with the demands of the Founders (and their Vorta agents). I'd say it's somewhat similar to the Roman Empire in its early days.

I also disagree that the Borg are illogical. The Borg think that that assimilation is their way of evolution; assimilating others improves the collective as a whole and ensures the continuation of the collective. The only thing I can think of being illogical is that they rely only on assimilating individuals, instead of actually creating the organic material themselves by cloning.

But surely it is just as important to keep the current parts of the collective in good shape as it is to assimilate new parts? The Borg seem to care more about assimilating new species than they do about the survival of many of their existing drones, and that is illogical.

"Members" of the collective are just tiny screws and bolts of a much larger whole, survival of the whole is the only issue and the individual is completely unimportant, as it doesn't even exist in the Borg.

Individual drones are the building blocks of the collective. If a drone is harmed, the collective is harmed. Thus, the collective should try to protect the cells of its body - the drones - from harm. Just like a rational human being wouldn't burn his fingers on purpose, a rational collective shouldn't harm its own drones on purpose (or allow them to be harmed when that can be avoided). Healthy and happy drones make a healthy and happy collective. :)

[Edric O]

About the Romulans, I'd like to note that there is far to little information given to determin wether they're fascist (unless it's in the movie Nemesis, wich I haven't seen). All we know about Romulan state is that many terms from the old Roman Republic (or more specific, the empire) were copied without ever explaining this, and the Roman society was at most proto fascist.

Well, we know they're quite nationalistic (claiming to have invented everything before anyone else, etc.), we know they have a very militaristic culture, we know they have a secret police... it may be a long shot, but they're at least similar to fascists.

As for why the Romulans use so many terms from the Roman Empire on Earth (including the names of their two core worlds), maybe those are just human translations of Romulan words. So the humans gave them their "Roman flavour".

[Anathema]

Well, what I said about the Dominion still applies to the relation between the founders on one hand and the Vorta and Jem'Hadar on the other. But you're right about the Romans, they often let other nations keep their autonomy in exchange for certain serices, mostly supplying them with soldiers.

The problem with your explanation for the copied terms is that there's no apparent reason to give them a Roman flavour, and not all the comparisons match well. As I recall the Romulan praetor was a leading figure in their senate, while the historical praetor could better be compared to a minister of justice (or more accurately, the English Lord Chancellor)

Now about the Borg...

If a caveman punches a rival in the face, he damages and destroys some of his own cells on his hand, yet ensures his own survival ;D

Also, I don't think a drone would survive indefinitely even if he's protected from combat. The organic components will deteriorate of age just like normal persons, as the proces can only be slowed down (I believe this was mentioned in one of the episodes)

[Tako]

I said there are no private companies. A shop or caf

[Tako]

Now about the Borg...

If a caveman punches a rival in the face, he damages and destroys some of his own cells on his hand, yet ensures his own survival ;D

Also, I don't think a drone would survive indefinitely even if he's protected from combat. The organic components will deteriorate of age just like normal persons, as the proces can only be slowed down (I believe this was mentioned in one of the episodes)

The borg protect the unimatrix 1 where the queen resides ( as to evrewhere she is) Te Borg are not a real collective cus the Queen dedicts what they should do. (first contact and several, and episodes unimatrix zero from Voyager)

The borg evolve through assimalation, progress comes whit some loss, it is an calculated risk for them. And the queen does not care about the drones taht are lost they are just little setbacks. she destoys them herselfto protect the whole colective in the voyager episode Unimatrix Zero

The dominion:

theocratic based dictatorship, the members worship the founders who are gods they obey everthing they say. The worlds are left to there own rule as to within the rules of the dominion. (bit like the set up of the federation really)

[Dude_Doc]

I don't know very much about the borg, but since we know that they are both mechanical and organic, then, wouldn't their structures also have this kind of compositions? That is, maybe the drones themselves are not the ones taking care of the Borg system, but everything around them, i.e. the floor, the walls, all the wires... maybe some kind of robo-insects that clean all the tubes and so on. Maybe the drones are just soldiers?

[Edric O]

I was talking about earth, in one episode of Voyager Harry Kim finds himself back on erath in his house, across the street there is a caf

[Tako]

We know a few Romulan words, and they sound like "Kuhn'ukchtacht", "Setha-mille par trukatha" or "Bar'ak t'stu annankana". Obviously, "Praetor" or "Romulus" can't be Romulan words, because they don't fit in with the rest of the language! Any translator (the universal translator included) can be taught to translate certain names if you want it to.

.

where id you get those words? I never heard of them and I concder myself to be a somewhat die-hard trek-fan what did I mis? ( or better where?)

as to the rest: mostly assumption, though there could be some truth in them, so I'm not saying you are wrong

still: you have to agree that the whole social structure of the romulens has ties with the roman empire ( the writers probebly did some research and found that it would suit the Romulan empire)

[Edric O]

I found those words in Memory Alpha's entry on the Romulan language. "Kuhn'ukchtacht" and "Bar'ak t'stu annankana" are part of a Romulan dialog from the Enterprise episode "Minefield", while "Setha-mille par trukatha" is part of a Romulan self-destruct countdown.

[Tako]

how did I misthat, besides from the memory alplha that I did not check, (If you can give me link I would appriciate it edric)

I also saw the episode but did not remember that any words here spoken in romulan

[Edric O]

But I already gave you the links... those words in yellow are links. For example, this is another link to the article on the Romulan language.

[Anathema]

Hehe, I'm colorblind (partially, not for all colors) and to me the difference between links and your regular text color is almost unnoticable ;)

[Tako]

But I already gave you the links... those words in yellow are links. For example, this is another link to the article on the Romulan language.

my mistake should have said that though, still yellow???? in my vieuw they are red but that could be me being also collerblind  :-

thanks for the links though

[Anathema]

Nice going Arutha, now Edric will think all Dutch are colorblind ;)

[Caid Ivik]

Nice going Arutha, now Edric will think all Dutch are colorblind ;)

That's induction, use it with caution  ;)

[d3m0nger]

Heh.... I'm partially colour blind, I can't see the difference between green/purple and blue

[nemafakei]

Maybe I'm Dutch?

[Tako]

Nice going Arutha, now Edric will think all Dutch are colorblind ;)

so? we are.... are we not? :D

[Anathema]

Maybe I'm Dutch?

No, you're just handicapped ;)

[Kiyouta]

:O

So the Fed2k colour scheme looks nice to you then. ;)

Here, this might help:

This is green.

This is purple.

This is blue.

:-X