GG Kerry, but you're a f**king wimp

[VigilVirus]

The sooner American society begins to crumble the better (it's going to happen sooner or later anyway). Therefore I commend those who voted GW Bush for showing such foresight.

The sooner the world society begins to crumble the better (it's going to happen sooner or later anyway). Therefore let's go out to murder, loot and plunder! Arrr!

::) Please, just because something is failing doesn't mean you should finish it off.

And in response to your earlier post, yes, all views should be allowed and considered. The neo-nazis, the neo-conservatives, radical muslims within US (Al Qaeda has no foundation in US and therefore cannot be considered as an official view) should be allowed to be heard. That's what democracy and freedom of speech are ideally about.

[Wolf]

Actually, Paladin, ignoring other countries' opinions to do what you think is in your country's national interest is just being a dick -- not being fascist. Pretty much every country does it on a daily basis for about a thousand little things no one cares about -- all these countries can't be fascist. I think the most accurate term to describe what Bush did in ignoring a lot of the globe's popular opinion would be to say that he was selfish, or ambivalent towards the world's opinion, or a cowboy, or whatever -- flamboyantly impolitical is a good one. It isn't fascist, though. Fascist is the political system in which the State is pretty much god. People throw around the term fascist now for pretty much everything it seems.

[Dante]

I'm saying democracy should be abolished.

So am I. And yet we disagree so much...

[syeline]

one thing i dont get is how the video mosh by eminem talks about bush sending troops over to war but john kerry wanted to send 40,000 more troops over there. no one says a word about that. Sure bush should have hate on him for dealing with a personal vendetta between saddam and hi dad and finishing whta his dad started but kerry wants to send more troops to die. And my uncle is in the army and an active army doctor which means he is in the docket to go over to war and he as border line of going when this war first started and he was up to go if kerry won the election. Not that i can vote and im 4 years from that which means i can vote at the next presidential election, but bush would have my votme even though i dont like eithe of them. There both equally ashaming to the country but thats from the mouth of a 14 yr old so i dont know if any cares but im gonna speak my peice in this.

Democracy abolished in the country. are you nuts? i would rather be able to vote then have some prick making the rules for me and making his rules unchecked by the balance of power in the goverment such as congress. dictator ship would throw america ff. we boast about being the freeland but our own citizens want to be ruled by a dictator. have you ever seen a nice dictator? everyu country you see that has a dictator is in economical distress or borderline to it.

[GUNWOUNDS]

It is unacceptable that the American people are given such power, since they are not capable of using it right. When I vote, I elect the person that will govern me, but when the Americans vote, they elect the person that will govern the world. They cannot be allowed to do so mindlessly.

You 're only thinking about Americans-how about the rest of the world? Plus, caring only about American civil rights is exactly what the Americans are doing-they only do what is good for themselves (which may not be after all so good), without considering the consequences for the rest of the world. That is the very reason they shouldn't have that power.

Well America is the  hyperpower of the world and the fact is that they do have the power regardless of whether they should or not... thus they must be doing something right.  Also they are prioritizing their own interests above others... thats normal and every country does it.... when France passes legislation do they stop and wonder how it will affect americans?  hell no. 

Also, prioritizing their interests above others and exerting their power is all part of the privilege of having that power.  You dont rise to the top to take orders from others.  The 360 million citizens in America and their forefathers have worked hard to establish their dominance as the Caesars and Pharoahs did for their generations.  If it is the USA's destiny to fall then it will fall.... until then they will exercise their dominance anyway they see fit in order to further their interests and benefit their citizens abroad.  Which is what any other civilaztion , empire, whatever would do in its place.  Atleast we can say the USA is the most benevolent of all empires/superpowers to date.  Most empires/superpowers took and never gave back ... but the USA gives to the world immensely in terms of food, aid, shelter, debt relief, funds, weapons, defense systems, literacy, medical supplies, etc, etc.

Stop thinking so one dimensional and look at the big picture.

.

[Andrew]

I love the fact that George Bush has not made a state visit to Canada in his four years of presidency. How could he not visit Canada!?!

He cancelled his visit because he started a war with Iraq. Yet for thanksgiving he could secretly fly out to Iraq. Kinda sad that he hasn't visited his biggest ally.

If he doesn't fix mad cow, potato and softwood lumber trade problems, me thinks most Canadians will start to dislike him more. Maybe if he shows an interest in Canada, we would have helped him out in Iraq. Once the fighting is over, I'm sure we will send over peacekeepers. But since the fighting is only getting worse, I see no reason to send in peacekeepers since it is still unstable.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I love the fact that George Bush has not made a state visit to Canada in his four years of presidency. How could he not visit Canada!?!

He cancelled his visit because he started a war with Iraq. Yet for thanksgiving he could secretly fly out to Iraq. Kinda sad that he hasn't visited his biggest ally.

If he doesn't fix mad cow, potato and softwood lumber trade problems, me thinks most Canadians will start to dislike him more. Maybe if he shows an interest in Canada, we would have helped him out in Iraq. Once the fighting is over, I'm sure we will send over peacekeepers. But since the fighting is only getting worse, I see no reason to send in peacekeepers since it is still unstable.

1.) him sneaking to iraq for thanksgiving to visit lonely troops to boost their morale is more important than visiting some canadians who could give a shit less.

2.)  I dont see how Canadians liking him less will affect the weather in Figi islands.... or anything else for that matter.  ;)

[Andrew]

Well I think it would affect whether or not we support America when they invade another country.

Yes boosting troop morale is a good thing, I just don't see how come he can not come up to Canada to see his biggest trade partners.

bbl

[Megashrap]

Certainly Kerry wouldn't change much, but his election would be a sign that the Americans disapproved of Bush's actions and he 'd have to choose a different course. The election of Bush however is a sign to him to go on the same way as in the last four years.

Nema was probably joking, but I 'm not. It is unacceptable that the American people are given such power, since they are not capable of using it right. When I vote, I elect the person that will govern me, but when the Americans vote, they elect the person that will govern the world. They cannot be allowed to do so mindlessly. One option is to convince them of the error of their views; they other one is to somehow remove that power from them and killing them is a way to do this. Bombing them is more stylish, I have to admit.

You 're only thinking about Americans-how about the rest of the world? In order to do war in Iraq, Bush ignored the European countries' opinion the same way Hitler ignored England and France when Germany invaded Poland. Isn't that fascist? Plus, caring only about American civil rights is exactly what the Americans are doing-they only do what is good for themselves (which may not be after all so good), without considering the consequences for the rest of the world. That is the very reason they shouldn't have that power.

Well again thanks for making my earlier 2 cents even clearer.

So now were comparing Bush to Hitler?

[nemafakei]

"thus they must be doing something right."

Right for whom? All this proves is, as you continue to say, they're good at serving their own interests, not doing what's morally right

"when France passes legislation do they stop and wonder how it will affect americans?  hell no."

When France passes legislation, they often seem to stop to think how best to annoy about everyone.

More seriously, most countries DO think about the US, usually in the form of "will this affect our trade with the US"? Or "How can we appease the US". I've explained before why this happens. This may, in some cases, still be a bizarre form of self interest, I agree, and it shouldn't happen (the question asked should be 'what's the moral thing to do'), but it does consider what others think.

But that's why we try to support things like the UN - not to further our own self-interest, but to try to protect others from being abused in the name of self-interest.

[Wolf]

Try not to imply too much into what I say. We are arguing over the Internet -- it's not like you can read into my tone of voice, or judge based on body language.

I just made the point that a nation looking out for its own self-interest isn't fascist. Fascism is a political system, a nation undertaking unpopular action in its own self-interest is merely, to quoth myself, "flamboyantly impolitical." The fact that you assumed I was implying the opposite disturbs me, since it's contrary to what I explicitly said.

In addition, you've just labled all Americans in your last post as not having the wit to decide what is best for themselves. Well, as I see it, Americans are probably the only people who have the right to decide what is best for Americans. So, what's your point?

[Dante]

Well America is the  hyperpower of the world

You never get tired of saying that, do you?

and the fact is that they do have the power regardless of whether they should or not... thus they must be doing something right.

Or possibly just happen to have more than anyone else anyway.

Also they are prioritizing their own interests above others... thats normal and every country does it.... when France passes legislation do they stop and wonder how it will affect americans?  hell no. 

This is a global community, and whether you like it or not you are not an island. You would be, but Canada and Mexico kind of get in the way of that. The USA interacts with the world and as such has a logical duty to consider the needs and wishes of the world. In the same way, all other countries should pay similar respect to the wishes of the USA and each other. The only way to avoid this would be to live in 'glorious isolation.'

Also, prioritizing their interests above others and exerting their power is all part of the privilege of having that power.  You dont rise to the top to take orders from others.  The 360 million citizens in America and their forefathers have worked hard to establish their dominance as the Caesars and Pharoahs did for their generations.

This sounds remarkably like the old 'divine right of kings' argument. "It is my divine right to be King and as King it is my divine right to do what I bloody well please!" How on earth can you call yourself a democratic nation with arguments like that?

If it is the USA's destiny to fall then it will fall.... until then they will exercise their dominance anyway they see fit in order to further their interests and benefit their citizens abroad.  Which is what any other civilaztion , empire, whatever would do in its place.

See above.

Atleast we can say the USA is the most benevolent of all empires/superpowers to date.  Most empires/superpowers took and never gave back ... but the USA gives to the world immensely in terms of food, aid, shelter, debt relief, funds, weapons, defense systems, literacy, medical supplies, etc, etc.

You can say that. Charity starts at home, you know.

Stop thinking so one dimensional and look at the big picture.

I am.

And I agree too.

With what?

Well again thanks for making my earlier 2 cents even clearer.

So now were comparing Bush to Hitler?  ::)

An accurate enough metaphor.

Ok, since were making such CLEARLY unrealistic statments like that, then I will throw one in and say abolish the U.N. since it is always the bottleneck in trying to actually acheive ANY type of a realistic  acheivment or resolution of any kind. :) Better yet remove all military bases, troops, aid of any kind, Humanitarian aid or all kind, etc. etc.  And then watch one killer domino effect of destruction Europe and others would fall to. Like ants attacking mounds of sugar piles.

There, an unrealistic response to an unrealistic statement.

Say something useful, will you?

[GUNWOUNDS]

This sounds remarkably like the old 'divine right of kings' argument. "It is my divine right to be King and as King it is my divine right to do what I bloody well please!" How on earth can you call yourself a democratic nation with arguments like that?

Umm.. we can call ourselves a democratic nation because we give our citizens the freedom characteristic of the democratic model... we are just selfish and dont give a rat's left testicle about foreigners.

I would say that bad foreign policy does not exclude one from being a democratic nation.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Hitler = Bush is an accurate enough metaphor.

Scar, Say something useful, will you?

Stop being an ass.... Scar is an infrequent PRP debator and you are just trying to discourage him from posting here because he doesnt share your liberal views.

And he was "bang on" for calling foul on that idiotic Bush = Hitler comparison.

[Khan]

Its stupid rubbish like that cost kerry the election.... he needs a new voter base instead of people who have two brain cells fighting to make a thought.

Because Bush is a veritable genius.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/index.php?e=sovereignty.mov

[Dante]

Umm.. we can call ourselves a democratic nation because we give our citizens the freedom characteristic of the democratic model... we are just selfish and dont give a rat's left testicle about foreigners.

I would say that bad foreign policy does not exclude one from being a democratic nation.

No, but an autocratic 'what we say goes' attitude does.

Stop being an ass.... Scar is an infrequent PRP debator and you are just trying to discourage him from posting here because he doesnt share your liberal views.

Not at all. I'm perfectly happy to debate with people that disagree with me. Example: Edric. A problem only arises when the person who disagrees with me also has an attitude problem. Examples: emprworm and yourself. I'm not trying to discourage scar5150 from posting because I disagree, but because I just don't like the way he says stuff.

And he was "bang on" for calling foul on that idiotic Bush = Hitler comparison.

[nemafakei]

"No, but an autocratic 'what we say goes' attitude does."

Dusty, perhaps you need to give democracy a chance. Democracy has always been closely linked to imperialism. Athens' empire was based on bribing the plebs with power in exchange for 'alliance' (more commonly known as tributes and protection rackets). Athenian gold reserves were enriched by exploiting, sometimes plain seizing, the natural resources of so-calledallies and enemies alike. Roman republican success was linked to its ever-expanding empire. The development of the 'popular militaristic leader' whose eventual title gives rise to the name imperialism was a natural progression from roman 'democracy'.

So perhaps true democracy has never been established. But what you call democracy has long been quite imperial. And would I be right in thinking that's the sort of thing you're after?

"both the American election and education systems"

That, however, was no better. Unless by education, you ment media. If you've got a case against the education, you need some reasoning at the very least.

[Dante]

By education I meant: 'half of you can't point out Africa on a map.'

I'm not quite sure what you mean about the other half, but personally I don't care for democracy. I favour autocracy. What I don't like is autocracy that pretends to be democratic or autocracy that has no concept of good foreign relations.

[Megashrap]

I'm not trying to discourage scar5150 from posting because I disagree, but because I just don't like the way he says stuff.

  Well I didn't realize there was a pre-requisite of holding a PhD. in English Lit. before posting here.  Wether or not my OPINION or "stuff" as you put it appease's your way of thinking or your personal views on the world is totally irrelavant to me, and far from discouraging me to post one.  I am also sure some may not particularly appreciate the way you quote someone's post with one line, one sentence rim shot responses.

but, I digress. I think maybe I'll just simply add this as a reminder.    o

[Dante]

Didn't I just say that I don't care about your opinions? It's the attitude that I don't like, and you have clearly demonstrated why.

[Megashrap]

Didn't I just say that I don't care about your opinions? It's the attitude that I don't like, and you have clearly demonstrated why.

  Well I don't know what your definition of "attitude" is, but these aren't exactlly polite by any stretch.

Sometimes I wonder why nobody you know hasn't stabbed you yet.

By education I meant: 'half of you can't point out Africa on a map.'

I'm not trying to discourage scar5150 from posting because I disagree, but because I just don't like the way he says stuff.

Simply put, if your not prepared to recieve any type of "attitude" then why dish it out so freely?  My posts were not even directed at or near you until you yourself blatently used a smartass response. I think I'll stick to observing this forum since I really don't have the time to play tit for tat on such childish crap as this.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Dante,

we ALL have attitudes and we all dont like each other...

Yes we know you dont like our attitude... and we dont like yours (read the quotes extracted by scar).... get over it.....addressing that particular fact every other post gets real old real fast.

You dont have to post that you dont like our attitudes every other post.

Try posting something more constructive than your likes/dislikes of someone's "attitude"

[Wolf]

"By the way stop repeating that you are the superpower in the world -it's like as if you helped America become that. You did nothing, and you didn't earn the power to be selfish and care only about yourself."

Personally, I think this, primarily, is the reason there is so much angst against the United States. This isn't about morals, politics, resources, or even religion. It might seem that way, but this is really all about power. Right now, the Americans have it. Europe can't stand it -- and I personally don't blame them -- and I fully think that if Bush had declared war on Saudi Arabia, or North Korea, or the Sudan, or any of the other dozens of countries that sort of deserve an asskicking, Europeans in general would have been angry and opposed it; especially if they were asked for help. Why? Because for the last 60 years, Europe was dependent upon the United States for economic reconstruction and military protection against the Soviets. Now, the Soviets are gone, and Europe is slowly realizing that it doesn't really need the United States to do what it used to do. Problem, though, is that Europe and the US are still heavily integrated as economies and political bodies. And they will only get even more so, because of globalization. So, it will be really interesting to see how the struggle for power works against or with the unconscious trend towards globalization.

*Note; in general, I'm talking about governments here and politically active figures. The people, in general, probably don't care too much about power -- except as some sort of abstract ideal. And until it becomes evident to people that power manifests itself in much more than the abstract, people will still be able to be twisted around to see one point of view.

EDIT*Note; it just occured to me. How can anyone here claim to not be selfish? What is a selfless point of view? Reducing the power of one necessarily increases the power of others, and human beings are never ambivalent between these different agents.

Now, I'm fairly certain that this post won't be well-received. That's pretty much okay, you don't have to take it as truth, and if it really bothers you so much, I am at least glad that I am in some way challenging you or encouraging you to think about what's really going on.

[GUNWOUNDS]

By the way stop repeating that you are the superpower in the world -it's like as if you helped America become that. You did nothing, and you didn't earn the power to be selfish and care only about yourself.

!!

I pay my United States Federal Income tax, I pay

[Megashrap]

Concering the Hitler & Bush comparision, one more similar point (apart from the fact they both ignored other countries): When the German parliament was burned Hitler called it an attack against democracy and used it as an excuse to ask for more power. In the very same way Bush used the attack of September 11 as an excuse to declare war against terrorism.

  What Hitler did was simply convince President von Hindenburg to invoke an emergency clause in the Weimar Constitution. The German parliament then passed a Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of the Nation and State. (Reichstage Fire Decree). The decree suspended the civil rights in the German constitution of Nazi opponents. These rights included: freedom of speech, assembly, press and formed the basis for not letting Nazi opponets have  judicial procceedings.  And it was the Nazi party who prevailed over the Social Democrats. I really don't see anything remotely similar in comparison.

By the way stop repeating that you are the superpower in the world -it's like as if you helped America become that. You did nothing, and you didn't earn the power to be selfish and care only about yourself.

Also the fact that the US. is a superpower, hyperpower is not a "in your face, bragging right to any other country by America, but rather a simple known fact that many cannot deal with, or maybe ready to accept.