I just cast my vote for Bush.

[Egeides]

"Retired.  Might drop by in several months, to check up on y'all, but we'll see."

I guess that puting this as your signature is a gradual way to come back? Welcome back.

[alchemi2]

Britian is European and I seem to remeber our troops are over in Iraq fighting, dying and helping both the Iraqs and you American! (so much for your facts) >:(

Both candidates sound like self serving arrogant yanks to me and both are rightwing by our political standards so make no odds to me who gets in the big white house. ;)

Oh and if America i so great under Bush how come your living in in Canada? Thought all you guys thought of Canada as the butt of America! dispite it being at the top, although now i think about it you often talk out of it so an easy mistake to make.

[Dante]

Personally I think Kerry is slightly more left wing than he appears, but is trying to appeal to the right wing vote. Hopefully once he's in office (oh please, oh please) he'll dump the pretence and do something worthwhile.

[Edric O]

hmm, I tend to agree that empr has a problem with tact, but then again I do sometimes too.

It goes far beyond a mere problem with tact. Emprworm seems to be unable to communicate at all with anyone who does not share his views.

I understand where empr is coming from, though he is just being a bit too generalistic. Not all europeans are uber-liberals, and not all white europeans are pot smoking hippies.lol

For the record, drugs are actually a bigger problem in America than in Europe. And the European Left is far more mature than American hippies.

Oh, and the term "liberal" in Europe is the equivalent of the American term "libertarian" (a.k.a. uber-capitalists). The European center-left are called social democrats.

BUT, I do agree that there is an extreme amount of arrogance against people who are traditionalists in america, and there is a lot of "nose thumbing" that goes on. It is trendy to be liberal these days and so many people who go back to basics and go towards conservative values are looked upon as dumb swine...

Are you sure this isn't just a local situation in your area? I mean, traditionalists currently rule America, and bash liberals so much that they're making them shy away from the very word "liberal"... so I don't see how being liberal could be "trendy".

...which makes me sad because in many ways I am a conservative.

Actually, the best term for your views would be "Christian Socialism".

I mean that word is perfect for many of us who want to conserve our old values and ways of living. Sometimes in history we need new and broad sweeping ideas that change our society, sometimes we need new and liberal ideas to get away from too much stagnation. On the other hand though sometimes we need to slow down, and sometimes we can go too far in trying to go too liberal.

Sometimes, yes. But the Right has been on the offensive for the past 25 years (ever since Reagan and Thatcher), and they've made spectacular gains. It's about damn time for the Left to start turning the tide.

I dont exactly like bush, but he is a hell of a lot better in my opinion than Kerry. kerry is honestly not that liberal at all, and honestly he can be just as fiscally conservative as bush, and that bothers me. Kusinich would have been a better candidate I think. He at least, though liberal, was fiscally liberal as well. I myself am liberal when it comes to how the government should tax the people (tax the rich a bit more than the poor, and so on, being generalistic, but am trying to give you an idea of what I am coming from) and should use that money for the betterment of the down trodden. At the same time though I am conservative socially in many ways.

Yes, like you said it yourself, you are a social conservative and a fiscal left-winger ("liberal"), which puts you in the upper-left quadrant of the political compass. Around the same area as the Pope, Mother Teresa, and others. When choosing how to vote in American elections (between the Democrats and the Republicans), you basically have to decide which set of issues are more important to you: the social or the fiscal? Personally, I think the fiscal are by far the most important, because people's lives depend on them. If I'd have to choose between feeding the poor and protecting my moral values in society, I'd choose to feed the poor without a minute's hesitation. And I tend to think Jesus would agree.

You are right that Kerry isn't very liberal at all, but at least he's not as conservative as Bush. And he intends to repeal Bush's tax cuts for the high income brackets.

Bush has indeed made many mistakes, but honestly many presidents have done worse. Its just that people are trying to find an ew president because they want the "good old days" back. In reality though those good old days were really not as "good" as people remember them. It is one of those things that people have been suffering from for millenia, trying to restore the past even though the past is not as good as people remember it.

True, but, wait a minute... the restoration of the past is a trademark of conservativism.

Also bush is just the president, and people seem to forget that presidents dont have all the power, in fact the president has very little power in many fields of government. You guys should also be blaming congress as well, and also you guys should be blaming the executive cabinet, which have made the majority of mistakes.

Well, the Congress is Republican, and so is the cabinet. So even though Bush himself is certainly not responsible for everything, Republicans are.

[Edric O]

And now to answer dear old Emprworm's post...

Bush, who has done an amazing job, who is a dignified, honorable man with integrity and a heart for freedom and democracy, will demonstrate once again his qualities of leadership.  I will rejoice at his victory.

You should consider working for Kim Jong-Il as propaganda minister. I'm sure you'd be the perfect man to build and sustain a massive personality cult.

I know that most people in here, like the rest of the youth/collegiate/youngsters in this world hate bush with a passion.  But youth are always the same.

Actually, Bush is hated with a passion by the overwhelming majority of everyone in the world - young people, middle-aged people, old people, men and women, Christians and Muslims, whites and blacks... everyone. Polls show that Bush would be defeated by a landslide if people outside America could vote in American elections. Also, of all leaders who ever lived, no one had so many people protesting against him or her as Bush had.

When the whole world despises you, maybe - just maybe - you should consider the possibility that you're doing something wrong.

they hated Reagan,

And with good reason. I bet no one hates him more than the relatives of those people in Latin America who were killed by the fascist death squads he sponsored.

they hated Roosevelt for entering the war

The world loved Roosevelt for entering the war. He only had to struggle with isolationist opposition AT HOME. So Roosevelt was in the OPPOSITE position as Bush (well, actually, he was loved quite a lot at home too...).

they hated it when the US invaded Normandy.

Who did? I was under the impression that everyone (except the nazis, of course) was celebrating.

The youth always protest war, thinking that freedom can somehow come for free (when in reality, freedom is bought with blood, always).

I've always said that the price of freedom is paid in blood - but that doesn't mean that any spilt blood will necessarily buy freedom. Blood can be spilt for tyranny as well.

15 million Afghans voted, when they never would have if the hateful Europeans had their way.

Yes they would have. Europe and the world overwhelmingly supported the war in Afghanistan.

there is too much hatred in these rooms as I once had a post locked for 'xenophobia'- an example of the bigotry exercised in the administration of this forum.

When you're old and grey, don't forget to pass that story on to your grandchildren, since it obviously means so much to you that you had one hate-filled post locked.

There is no tolerance in this forum for those of us who endorse Bush, because hatred overcomes objectivity here.

TMA just said he will vote for Bush, and I don't see any angry leftist hordes attacking him. Maybe you should consider the possibility that the fault lies with you, not us.

Although it would seem boring to me to have a forum where everyone agrees. [...] Wow, ...socialists talking to socialists debating the fine points of socialism...eeks, what a forum this has become  (quite sad, too).

Even if that were true (which it isn't), why are "socialists talking to socialists debating the fine points of socialism" any different from capitalists talking to capitalists debating the fine points of capitalism? Keep in mind that the majority of mainstream political debate in our current capitalist system consists of capitalists talking to capitalists debating the fine points of capitalism. Bush and Kerry, for example, are two such capitalists. Yet they're quite different, aren't they? The same can be said of socialists. The political mainstream in a socialist system would involve different brands of socialism debating against each other, just like the political mainstream in our capitalist system involves different brands of capitalism debating against each other.

It would seem boring to me to have a forum where, in a recent thread, every single person except one chooses the following 3 candidates as their top picks for president out of a list of more than 20:

  Cobb, David - Green Party 

  Nader, Ralph - Independent 

  Brown, Walt - Socialist Party

Actually, 10 people had those three candidates as their top picks, and 3 people didn't. 3 != 1. As for the reason why so many people had those candidates as their top picks, it is simple: They are the only left-of-center candidates in the US presidential race. By world standards, all the others are right-wing - and this is a multinational forum.

So with that, I just want to say best wishes and I hope that one day, you will see that the richest men on earth are the ones who espouse socialism (Kerry is 10 times richer than bush...

And since when is Kerry a socialist? He's a liberal (and a very mild and conservative-leaning one at that).

Sorros the anti-capitalist, is a multi billionare.

Since when is Sorros anti-capitalist? He supports capitalism - a well-regulated brand of capitalism, but still capitalism. Sorros is a liberal (or "social democrat" in European terms).

Hollywood, the wealthiest region on the planet, is overwhelmingly anti-bush and anti-capitalist.

1. Hollywood is not the wealthiest region on the planet. The wealthiest region on the planet is somewhere in a millionnaire vacation spot and tax-free haven for the rich, like Monaco.

2. Hollywood, like Kerry and like Sorros, is liberal. Not anti-capitalist - not by a long shot!

These are just facts.  You cannot argue them, because they are facts.

Funny - because I've just refuted them. But you keep telling yourself that; after all, the power of self-suggestion to block out reality should never be underestimated.

[Caid Ivik]

Your vigor is fascinating, however do you think he'll return just because of your detailed reply? It's a scream into wind.

[Edric O]

I didn't post that reply for his sake, but for the sake of everyone else who reads this topic.

[Caid Ivik]

You call this a...informative styling?

[Andrew]

Here is a long article that shows the Bush government's wrong doings.

[SpiceGuid]

The french TV seems quite confident Kerry is the winner.

They keep saying that's great news for europeans.

They also say Iraki are totally indifferent.

Do you think Kerry can offer care-system for everyone?

I mean Bill and Hilary Clinton already have promissed but failed  :(

[Dude_Doc]

Seems to me like we're going to live with 4 more years of Bush... According to "here", "now", he is leading with about 5 states...

[Andrew]

It's not over till the fat lady sings.

Which in america might take a month or so.

[SpiceGuid]

What's wrong with gay marriage?

Gay marriage is inevitable, just like discrimination based on sexual preference is not allowed.

so if i am bisexual then i can marry both a woman and a man ;D

otherwise i am discriminated ;)

i do not discriminate gays, they can marry (a woman) if they want ;D

[Andrew]

Well there are forms of polygamy, although I am not sure about bipolygamies(?)

If you were bisexual you could marry a man or woman. But I doubt both.

[ordos45]

And with good reason. I bet no one hates him more than the relatives of those people in Latin America who were killed by the fascist death squads he sponsored.

Actually I'm surprised more Americans don't hate Reagan.  Under Reagan, the CIA trained several agents and funded them to make anti-Soviet terrorist groups in Afghanistan...one was named Usama bin Laden, and his group was later to be called Al Quaeda.  The rest of the Mujuhadeen funded by America, was later known as the Taliban.

Anyhow.  I just voted for Badnarik.  Nader is reaching the end of his lifespan most likely, late seventies.  Bush and Kerry I've lost any respect for.  Thus Badnarik was the only one left on my state's ballot, and I am a strong supporter of Libertarian policies against censorship and Non-Interventionist Foreign Policy.

[Dante]

I didn't post that reply for his sake, but for the sake of everyone else who reads this topic.

Don't worry, Edric. I appreciate it.

[TMA_1]

hehe yes, the republican party has definitely hurt america, more than the democratic party in some ways. I am a christian socialist, my dad used that same word to discribe what our family believes, neat that you mentioned the same term. :)   

I think the most convincing thing you told me in there is that both are bad, but at least one is fiscally more liberal than the other one, and that is so important because peoples lives are at the heart of the matter. good point with that.

[KALONY]

in my opinion, is europe a lil more pro-kerry, coz we r more open minded to the world. but ok, we still dont know, what kerry woulda do, but we know what bush did. thats why.

"BUT, I do agree that there is an extreme amount of arrogance against people who are traditionalists in america, and there is a lot of "nose thumbing" that goes on. It is trendy to be liberal these days and so many people who go back to basics and go towards conservative values are looked upon as dumb swine..."

thats not true.

we have much more traditionals than the young america, and there is mostly a big respect for it here. and we have respect for american tradition 2. without any question except when a horde of traditionals try to ocupie and policie the world...hehe

KALONY