No One Died When Clinton Lied...

[ordos45]

I hear this phrase so many times, and it irks me to death.  I dislike the Deification of Clinton as much as I do the current Deification of Bush Jr.  So I came up with a small list from the top of my mind of times Clinton lied, and people died:

1) Haiti.  Democratically elected Aristide is ousted in a coup.  Clinton sends in US troops to place him back in power, he also promises to supply Haiti with aid.  Within a short amount of time of re-instating Aristide, Clinton cancels all aid due to the corruption of Aristide and his regime.  (Aristide himself, you may remember, was forced to flee Haiti this year.)  With lack of aid, hundreds to thousands die.

2) Somalia.  Clinton sends US troops to protect and distribute food with the UN convoys.  In an ill concieved and failed effort many Somalis and more than a dozen US troops die in an attempt to capture a warlord's top leutenants.

3) Iraq.  I assume you are all familiar with the results of the WMD report, that after the Gulf War Iraq most likely did not have WMDs.  Clinton launched 400 Tomahawk cruise missiles into Iraq to destroy WMD stockpiles.  If there were none, he only killed Iraqi citizens.

If anyone else can think of something ending in deaths that Clinton lied about, feel free to mention.  That's just my humble list, to go against the saying "No one died when Clinton lied".

[GUNWOUNDS]

I hear this phrase so many times, and it irks me to death.

[orlok]

Well, a bit harsh, methinks.

I believe the world is a better place without saddam, and i think the Somalia thing had good intentions but, as usual, it comes down to money and politics.

Somalia was a mess due to the lack of co-ordinated info between the ground troops and their commanding officers (hidden away at the B.O.Ops.)

Iraq was and IS a worthy cause, but the reasoning to the public is perhaps incorrect.

As to collateral damage, it is expected, but the US does have a histoy of being a little heavy handed.

IE remember the blue on blue of the first gulf war.

We lost a few good men that time.

sorry if im blunt, but im under the influence of lager logic.

rgds

LoK

[Acriku]

That's a stretch Ordos. Your first example does not give an example of people dying due to the direct influence of Clinton's failed promise. The only thing that Clinton could have done with the aid was make things better, if he gives it out. If they don't get aid, then they're no worse off than before. Your second example doesn't seem to have a lie in it. Could you care to explain how that involves Clinton lying? Your third example is unclear, as well, as to what he lied about. Did he lie about there being stockpiles and possibly just wanted to send in 400 tomahawk missiles into Iraq for the fireworks? Explain, please. I'm not a Bush-hater, or a Clinton-lover, so anyone feel free not to call me any of those labels.

[Edric O]

I think the phrase "No One Died When Clinton Lied" is a reference to Clinton's best known lie... "I did not have sex with that woman". ;)

On another note, people who say Clinton was better than Bush certainly do seem to have a very short memory. Clinton was the one who began many of the trends later taken to new heights by Bush - such as attacking the welfare state and making life miserable for the poor.

[ordos45]

Your first example does not give an example of people dying due to the direct influence of Clinton's failed promise. The only thing that Clinton could have done with the aid was make things better, if he gives it out. If they don't get aid, then they're no worse off than before.

At least some aid did get to the people who needed it, thus when it was pulled, it would result in deaths.

Your second example doesn't seem to have a lie in it. Could you care to explain how that involves Clinton lying?

The second example, Clinton told the American people that the troops were being sent in to guard the UN food convoys.  Launching an assault, is not a defense, unless someone subscribes to the Best Defense is a Good Offense. 

Did he lie about there being stockpiles and possibly just wanted to send in 400 tomahawk missiles into Iraq for the fireworks? Explain, please.

That same question could be asked of Bush Jr.  Did he lie about there being stockpiles and just wanted to attack Iraq?  Clinton, I will concede, probably got more failed intelligence on the stockpiles; or he just wanted to remind Saddam not to get too uppity.

I'm not a Bush-hater, or a Clinton-lover, so anyone feel free not to call me any of those labels.

This is PRP Acriku, someone's probably called you that before. ;)

(And Orlok, go get yourself elected to Parliament, you could run on being blunt.  People might appreciate it. :D )

[Dante]

People lie, people die. At least Clinton could think and speak at the same time.

[GUNWOUNDS]

People lie, people die,

[Acriku]

At least some aid did get to the people who needed it, thus when it was pulled, it would result in deaths.

The second example, Clinton told the American people that the troops were being sent in to guard the UN food convoys.  Launching an assault, is not a defense, unless someone subscribes to the Best Defense is a Good Offense. 

That same question could be asked of Bush Jr.  Did he lie about there being stockpiles and just wanted to attack Iraq?  Clinton, I will concede, probably got more failed intelligence on the stockpiles; or he just wanted to remind Saddam not to get too uppity.

This is PRP Acriku, someone's probably called you that before. ;)

(And Orlok, go get yourself elected to Parliament, you could run on being blunt.  People might appreciate it. :D )

Okay, I see how your second example is a good example. Did Bush lie about the WMDs? Well his mentality is leaning towards the "shoot 'em up" Texan style of leadership, so who knows what's going on in his head.

[Dante]

I never said Clinton was good. I just think it's a good idea to be governed by a person who can avoid statements like "I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to answer questions. I can't answer your question."

Frankly if I were to choose I'd prefer a president with the familiy capabilities of a squid to one who's just dim. But then it's not my choice...

[HasimirFenring]

I think the phrase "No One Died When Clinton Lied" is a reference to Clinton's best known lie... "I did not have sex with that woman". ;)

You will notice the statement is still in my sig, and this is the justification.  It has nothing to do with Clinton being better/worse (he was better becuase he could balance a budget, but that aside).  It is only that HIS lie, which is the largest single source of criticism, didn't harm anyone.

[GUNWOUNDS]

You will notice the statement is still in my sig, and this is the justification.

[HasimirFenring]

1.)  It harmed his wife mentally and emotionally

2.)  It harmed Monica's reputation ... now people will always think of her having a *censored* in her mouth when they see her. 

3.)  It harmed the US taxpayers for making us pay for an investigation to see who sucked his *censored*.

But you are right that nobody died  ;)

You didnt bother to mention his daughter; all beside the point, emtionally damaging his "poor" senator wife and lewinski damaging her own reputation by making a secret public < troop causualties, and the money from that idiotic investigation <<< the cost of the iraq war.

Clinton isn't my favorit president (far from it), but I'd take a 3rd term of him over bush anyday.

[SurlyPIG]

On another note, people who say Clinton was better than Bush certainly do seem to have a very short memory. Clinton was the one who began many of the trends later taken to new heights by Bush - such as attacking the welfare state and making life miserable for the poor.

What the devil are you talking about?  Clinton reformed taxes to target the rich and reduced taxes on the lowest wage earners, reduced the cost of health care, increased the power and size of the middle class, literally inverted the deficit at the start of his presidency into a surplus of the same size at the end of his presidency and brought the US out of the economic gutter after 12 years of Republican rule during the Reagan/Bush1 terms.  The result was the longest sustained economic expansion in US history.  Health care was more accessible.  So unless by "attacking the welfare state" you mean that he didn't actively try to turn the US into a socialist state then you are completely mistaken.  If anything, the US was more of a welfare state than it is/was under either Bush preceeding or following him.

Say what you will about his personal conduct or foreign policy, but Clinton was a strong leader at home.

[Tinuviel]

People lie, people die,

[SpiceGuid]

any government lies.

Chirac governement (summer 2003): there is no sanitary problem with heat.

result: 15000+ death within 2 weeks

so may be terrorism is a danger, but actually government is a greater danger.

[nemafakei]

That's more than I realised! My goodness...

Though be aware that Chirac may not have been lying, so much as stating something he believed, but didn't have proof for. Saying there was proof, on the other hand, would be a different matter.

[Anathema]

On another note, people who say Clinton was better than Bush certainly do seem to have a very short memory. Clinton was the one who began many of the trends later taken to new heights by Bush - such as attacking the welfare state and making life miserable for the poor.

I never heard of that, and another thing: you once said that Reagan tore down much of America's public services, and for Clinton to be able to do it again, it must have been (partially) rebuilt- by Bush senior.

[SpiceGuid]

Though be aware that Chirac may not have been lying, so much as stating something he believed, but didn't have proof for. Saying there was proof, on the other hand, would be a different matter.

medical services have reported the unusual mortality of aged people, yet the french government has continued to pretend age is the cause of mortality. only latter they recognized the existence of hyperthermy.

yet no french political feels responsible, no legal action to determine responsability either.

french people are just a statistic.

so 15000 aged persons do not count but 2 french press hostages are over-mediatized. this is mediacracy rather than democracy.

[GUNWOUNDS]

And somehow I always feel like they think the "common people" are stupid... it pisses me off. >:(

OK I think I'm done now... maybe. :D

You would be surprised how stupid the "common folk"

[GUNWOUNDS]

Next, simply "appealing" to voters is NOT genius in my opinion, it is deceptive and corrupt to try to make people vote for something that is not what it seems. The point is not to get the job, it's to do the job right, and the "right" is defined by the people! Yes, I am an idealist, but what kind of democracy is one that doesn't give every person equal rights to government?

yep .. welcome to politics.... you're not in kansas anymore toto.

[ordos45]

I have to agree with Gunwounds there.  West Virginia is a small state, and that sometimes makes our races worse.  Our Bar Association has censured both candidates for Supreme Court, it seems they're running one of the nastiest smear campaigns in the nation.

[Edric O]

I never heard of that, and another thing: you once said that Reagan tore down much of America's public services, and for Clinton to be able to do it again, it must have been (partially) rebuilt- by Bush senior.

Notice the key word in my statement: Reagan tore down much of America's public services. Much, not all. There was enough left for his successors to continue to chip away. As for Clinton's policies, you should try asking TMA about that... he experienced them firsthand.