Good and Evil

[garth]

How about them Sardaukar uniforms?! :)

[Mahdi]

You are missing my point.

You claim Paul was evil becasue 61 billion people were killed by his Church in his name.

You say Jeasus is good even though millions have been killed by his church's in his name.

Tahts hypocritical, you should chose one way or the other.

[exatreide]

I agree pick one if ones evil the other ones evil.

[Gobalopper]

Jesus, not Jeasus! :)

BTW, the tank debate thread was much longer... maybe not post wise but content wise for sure. I have no clue where that thread is now though.

[ordos45]

ok Ex Atreides this means war...just kidding *is in bunker surrounded by Kobras* If Paul had died and was resurrected why was he still blind. I'm sure in either Dune Messiah or Children of Dune it mentions he survived by mingling his waters with those of Jacratu (spelling?). Therefore he did not die before he became the preacher. Next seems strange that millions believe in the bible and that there is sooo much scientific evidence you never hear of that supports it, trust me evidence is there if you dig around enough. Next off, Paul never raised anyone from the dead, Jesus did. If water to wine is no big miracle lets see you do it, without grapes. Also Jesus could have lead an army of angels and anhialated Earth if he wanted to. Next off Mua'dib did not take the sins of the world on himself and descend into hell to be resurrected.

About those killed by followers of Christ, sometimes instincts to defend a cause or one's self overides the deepest faith. And those who know god that were killed by his church have eternal life.

Paul was a false prophet and he knew it. Can you guess who would probably be burning in hell after his death? Paul probably.

Crusades aka Jihad politics like Fedaykin said.

One more thing to Ex Atreides specifically. Jesus healed people and Paul in the books did not. Jesus gave the power to heal to his disciples, Paul gave them like nothing but political power or death. As for the religions that Jesus and his followers destroyed who knows how many. If it wasn't for him every Christian in the world would be burning animals and stuff still.

Oh and the Fish Speaker homosexuality thing. NIV version of the bible (since they supposedly believe in it...well the ornge catholic one anyhow) Leviticus Chapter 18. If u read it you'll know what I mean when addressing the Fish Speakers.

I think this chapter is also prophecy about the Jerry Springer show. lol

[Mahdi]

Your still dancing aroundt eh question Ordos.

How can one man who has so many deaths accredited to his name be evil, and another good?

[Gobalopper]

Just look at the purpose behind both. One came to Earth to save people, the other got caught up in the prophecy that he was a God among men. Jesus didn't tell people to wipe out religions that didn't believe in him, people did that, Paul on the other hand issued those orders.

[ordos45]

Thank you Gob, that is the answer to the question.

Oh and Edric little unrelated but your calling Hitler Satan's Pet made me think of the show First Wave. On the show they keep stressing Napoleon and Hitler were the first 2 or 3 anti-christs. Even though there will only be one Anti-Christ.

[Acriku]

But Gob, are you saying Jesus' followers were evil? They basically killed people because they wouldn't believe their beliefs. It would be called evil today, why not then?

[Mahdi]

And it wasn't Paul who led the Jihad like you said Paul, it was his Church, they jsut acted in his name, jsut like all the atrocities commited by Chirstian Churches.

[exatreide]

i agree i think it times we stop looking at the religis part of this. its bringing out the worst in people. *just in case you dont want to quit,Exatreides goes to the lowest leval of his bunker suronded by 60 moini things 800 freman fediikay 600 sadkar and 45 mongoses and 45 orini things*. lets stop this ok? its getting verry hot in here due to all the heated tempers. good thing i brought along my sunscreen :).

[ordos45]

Say does Gob have a bunker? If he does it puts our two bunkers to shame probably.

[exatreide]

if so we should join forces and crush him.

muahahhahahahahahahahhahaah

muahahahahahahahahaha ect..

[ordos45]

Umm...crushing Gob would be bad. BTW I know you won't be back until monday from what you said on AIM but I still have to say this...mhwahaha or whatever is not that long. So no attempting to overthrow the rightful admin.

[Gobalopper]

Paul may not of actually done the killing but he was around when it was happening. As for the people who actually did the killing I suppose you could label them as "evil" but they are doing what they think is right, so if you agree with what they are doing they would be "good" in your eyes. You can see it from two sides either you agree with what they are doing or you don't.

The thing is Jesus didn't tell his followers go kill those people because they don't believe in my religion, Paul did. After Jesus left some of his followers did inevitably stray from his true message and did stupid things, they are after all human, but that doesn't necessarily make him evil.

[peseverance]

this make is 115

thats 25 posts in two days!

[Mahdi]

Once again, Paul didn't tell them to kill everyone who didn't believe in his religion.

[Guest Scytale]

Could Paul have done anything else-if he'd denounced it and gone into exile it would have happened anyway, and worse as he wouldn't be around to keep things from totally spiralling down. He sought to end it by escaping his vision at the end of Dune Messiah by walking out into the desert (so yeah, dying to save humanity) as he thought his vision was controlling things because if he sees himself doing something because any other way would be worse, so he would do that thing, so he would stay on the same path and still wouldn't be able to change anything, and the Jihad would keep going, and thenahhmybrainhurts. He came back as the preacher because things weren't getting any better, what with Alia getting possesed by the Baron and all.

[Acriku]

Yes but remember, like ORDOS45 said, Paul never died in the desert. And in the sietch where Chani died, that was where he actually went blind right? Also his son helped him by showing Scytale killing the babies or something and so he killed him. Pretty cool eh?

[exatreide]

no he went blind becouse of the stone burner in the city. nee you guys sunday gtg here

[Edric O]

If I preached peace and love, and 1000 years after my death some guys will start killing in my name, would that make me evil? Because that's what you're saying, Mahdi and ExAtreides!

Jesus Christ DID denounce all the murders commited in his name. He denounced them before they happened, because he told his followers to love their enemies. Muad'hib, on the other hand, never preached ANYTHING. He lead the Fremen into battle. Oh how peaceful of him!

"who is to say that jesus was NOT a lying sack of donkey crap?"

Who is to say that I will NOT flame your sorry ass, ExAtreides? You're lucky that the OHA is a democratic clan, because I REALLY want to kick you out. But I will obey my own rules. Grrrmph... FYI, the man Jesus DID exist. Roman chronicles mention him. And what proves that he was right? Well, let me see, he did this:

- turned water into wine

- healed paralisys and leprosy

- walked on water

- stopped a storm

- made a blind man see

- made many other miracles that I won't list

- ressurected Lazarus

- ressurected HIMSELF

The few most important miracles and their effect on the jews are mentioned in different historical chronicles. Sure, you could still argue against them, so let's see what proves that the evolutionist theory is right

- a bunch of fossiles (dead creatures) that people tried to make sense of.

- Darwin and other *smart* people said so.

Hmmmm, not too impressive. Just remember that 1000 years ago, the *smart* people said that the Earth is flat and the Sun rotates around it.

ExAtreides, I don't mind atheists. But I do mind ignorant atheists who don't know **** about either Religion or Evolutionism, yet insult Holy people. Ever heard of a little thing called "respect for other beliefs"?

Hell will do the rest of the flaming. ;D

[Edric O]

Oh, and one more thing. You can't compare Muad'hib with Jesus Christ because Muad'hib is a FICTIONAL character. So all the similarities that you could find are actually proof that Frank Herbert took inspiration from real life, instead of using only his imagination.

[Acriku]

Nonono ExAtreides, Paul only lost his eyesight, but he could still see due to his prescience. He wasn't technically blind so he wasn't sent to the desert then. But when he lost all of his sight in the sietch, he went to the desert. I reread the part and it's true.

[Acriku]

Edric, why do you hate evolutionism so much? Geez you make it sound like a bunch of hooey. I myself believe in evolution, and what you stated about it is pure sh*t. These guys were scientists, who were looking for facts. They found bones formed into fossils, how could you explain them Edric? You can't because you don't know a lot about it, or do and just ignore it because it is against your beliefs. You see something unexplained and you trash it. Why? Because you don't want to believe it. And one religious question that I'm not sure of, who do Christians believe wrote the Bible? Was it written all at once or added time after time? Just asking.

[Acriku]

Oh and Edric in the early-1600s Galileo(the one after Copernicus to come up with the theory that Earth revolves around the SUN) went against the Catholic Church with his theories. The Catholic Church's Bible has multiple Psalms that state the Earth didn't move and the SUN revolved around it. Examples: Psalms 92: "He has made the world firm, not to be moved."; Psalms 103: "You fixed the earth upon its foundation, not to be moved forever."; Ecclesiastes 1:4 and 5: "One generation goeth, and another generation cometh; but the earth abideth for ever. The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to its place where it ariseth." The Catholic Church then basically told Galileo that he was full of sh*t. You are acting just like the Catholic Church Edric, pushing something off because it is against your beliefs. And Charles Darwin and his associates are not the same people who thought the Earth was flat, etc. So stop bashing the great scientists for doing their job. :)