False prophet or not?

[Mahdi]

A few days ago in the good and evil thread, Shaddam posted that Muad'dib was a false prophet. Now, I'm wondering, is it true? Could it be that he wasn't a flase prophet, that he was truly divinly inspired? Jsut think of the Matrix scene where Neo visits the oracle.

[garth]

I've never seen the Matrix, anyways.....

Paul wasn't a prophet because the criteria that would've made him one was created by the Missionaria Protectiva on Arrakis centuries before his arrival. He manipulated the Fremen and their religion so he could get his fief back and avenge his father's death.

There is no way anyone can prove this to be a divine plan of any kind.

[ordos45]

I'm not going to explain as much as Shaddam did but no he is not a true prophet. He is a false prophet and is not divinely inspired. Prophets do not inspire people or tell them to kill for them.

[Mahdi]

Tahts a pretty bold statement Ordos45. I'm sure that if you looked you could find prophets who have killed or ordered killings. Take Myrddin for instance.

As for the Matrix: In one seen Neo is brought to the Oracle, where he is told that he is not the chosen one. Later, it is discovered that he was told that because that is what he needed to believe in order to be the chosen one.

Can not the same apply to Paul? He needed to believe that he wasn't divinly inspired in order to do what he did? If he truly beleived that he was doing gods work, there is no doubt he would have acted differently, therefore changing what he did, and in changing what he did, he would not do what he was meant to do. Could it be that he needed to beleive that he was not the chosen one?

[Acriku]

Interesting Mahdi. But so many factors could have changed his future along with him believing or not (e.g. he could have stayed behind on Caladan). Why just settle on this one? Depends if you believe in fate.

[Digital Guerrilla]

But higher order powers did take over says so in the Dune appendix doesn't that count for something?

[Acriku]

No...LoL just kidding.

[Guest Yarrick]

In the mind of Frank Herbert, Paul is more than a prophet.

He is the kwisatz haderach, he is a living god ! He knows all, past, present and future.

Just an opportunist ? No I don't think so...

[peseverance]

hey don't we have a message thread for this ?? > Good Or Evil.... wait thats closed

I move that we close this too

[daniel]

agreed :P

[garth]

Oh great here comes the censure brigade......it's not like we are hurling insults at each other lol

"But higher order powers did take over says so in the Dune appendix doesn't that count for something?"

Actually this is what it says:

"The obvious conclusion was that someone of higher order powers was taking control of the spice source"

Now look at page 508:

"The Bene Gesserit program had as its target the breeding of a person they labeled "Kwisatz Haderach," a term signigying "one who can be many places at once." In simpler terms, what they sought was a human with mental powers permitting him to understand and use higher order dimensions."

What the previous quote about someone with higher order powers taking over spice production is that Paul the Kwisatz Haderach is behind it, although they didn't know at the time. Higher order powers is just a fancy term for prescience.

Still no evidence of a divine plan.

[Mahdi]

PErsonally, I don't beleive Paul was a prophet, there is a difference in my mind between prophecy and presceince.m I am jsut playing devils advocate here. Also, good versus evil was a thread discussing whether Paul was good or evil, not whether he was divinely inspired.

As for there being no proof that he was divinly inspired, could it not be said that the very fact that he could see the future showed that he was divinly inspired?

[garth]

But even so Mahdi, his prescience was spice induced. On early Caladan he had dreams that would come true but those were only glimpses, similar to deja vu.

[Acriku]

How do you know the spice is just helping him believe he can see the future? Or the spice could have just opened a window in which he could see through and find the future. But, on the other hand, wouldn't a prophet be a prophet all his life? In Dune Messiah he lost his prescience views. Boggles the mind eh?

[Mahdi]

So how do you knmow that God didn't use the spice to give Paul his visions?

[garth]

Because there is no evidence of divine intervention, while logic would dictate the narcotic spice heightened his mental capacities which combined with his lineage and Atreides traits/genes made him the Kwisatz Haderach.

[Mahdi]

And how do you know that it wasn't God's plan to have him have those genes, and to make his mother fall in love with his father and go against everything she beleived in, bear a son?

[Edric O]

Guys, I hate to bring this up but YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A BOOK! It's F-I-C-T-I-O-N, written by Frank Herbert. In Herbert's books, Religion was always used for political purposes and all Religions were somewhat corrupt. Therefore, I believe that the Duniverse doesn't have a God. So Paul CAN'T be a true prophet, because there are no true prophets in the Duniverse.

[Acriku]

This is a book yes, but also what we are doing is called a D-I-S-C-U-S-S-I-O-N. And there was mention of a God in the books, forgot where but I am definitely sure it's there.

[garth]

What I'm driving at is this: I cannot conclude or even consider that there was a divine plan involved with Paul Atreides without any evidence at all backing it up. It's just pure speculation.

[ordos45]

He has a point back it up with evidence. Anyhow, what is the whole point anyway. We all have our own views and will continue to squabble until the end of time...at this rate anyway.

[Acriku]

Seems as though we are so much opinionated we are stubborn. And does anyone see that almost every thread that argues something has no end?

[ordos45]

I think the opinion arguements on this board started on eith deviator or good and evil threads. It brought out our natural aggessiveness and now we cannot suppress it. Or we all believe in what we believe and will not be swayed yet we all feel we must sway others to our causes. Or just the fact we all need more sleep.

I think my problem is all of the above. Never watcha graphic hour slide show on abortion without looking away. I didn't look away and have gotten half my regular amount of sleep since I saw it.

[peseverance]

h boy here we go again

[Mahdi]

Well Shaddam, you can't prove Jesus was a true prophet either, can you?

And if everything hapens due to Gods design and is part of his plan, and since Paul, according to the B.G., could not be the Kwisatz Haderach (he didn't have the correct genes), and since Paul would never have been born if it wasn't for a single impulsive act that wenta gainst everything his mother was trained in, could it not be said that that shws divine intervention?