Why Muslims Behead People (second attempt)

[emprworm]

there is a reason why Muslims cut off the heads of unbelievers.

[EWS]

This really does illustrate the fact that what happend to Berg was right, in the eyes of some.

In response, if we were really "righteous people" then we would be trying to change the views of those in arab world.  However, we do not tell them that the Qu'ran is wrong, we just say that there are exceptions to what "god" teaches.  That to be a better person we cannot take it a face value.

Ps. Was this really necessary for a new topic, maybe a post in the Berg topic would have sufficed.

[Digital Guerrilla]

Let us also remember that these were extremist Muslim militants. Berg had been warned to leave Iraq months before his unfortunate death. You are correct in the statement that some Arabs do not know how to read and that they memorize the Qu'ron. It is good to see that you now understnd that those extremist Muslims do take the Ou'ron by it's words life or death.

In all respect to Nick Berg it is sad that his last minutes have been played out all over the world to see adding fuel to an already growing flame that burns in the Middle East. Berg never knew he was going to die until it happened (the same as Pearl) in so many ways they waited like lambs to be slaughtered. They were both grown men who knew of the dangers in the Middle East and that they of all people had no real protection from such acts being commited to them by these extremists.

[nemafakei]

Not having a Qu'ran to hand, I shall reserve judgement. After all, most holy texta are a bizarre lot, often rife with contradiction.

[Andrew]

The Muslim culture should be assimilated by westerners. ::)

Because westerners think their culture is right and muslims think their culture is right. But westerners are more powerful thus they will force their culture onto them by invading their countries.

As seen in Iraq where many foreigners have gathered and want to impose their rules upon them (democracy etc). Could go as far as to say they are colonizing it with western civilians (if it was a military conquest only, there would be little need for many western civilians).

Oh well that is the way life has been and will be, the powerful destroying other cultures because the powerful see others as uncivilized, barbaric and savage just because their culture is different (and they want their land, labour, and wealth).

So if Muslims behead people because it is their culture, then I see no reason why not to, as we should not impose our cultural standards upon them. (so I guess emprworm is right by what he said ;))

and what's wrong with burning people at the stake or crucifixion if it is part of a culture, even if it was part of Christianity (so someone said)? Should you shun christianities history?

Sorry for my rants. :(

[Dude_Doc]

How ironic, we are learning about Islam in school now, heh.

I found a fault here:

In fact, Muslims have been taking off the heads of unbelievers for 1300 years (since the beginning of Islam in the late 8th century).

Islam "began" around 622 AD, when Muhammad returned from his exile to conquer other places.

Anyways, I do think Islam is a bit off. I found one point that is not really clear to me (correct me if I am wrong, and please post sources):

According to Islam, Jesus was a prophet. People thought that he was crucified, but they have confused it with someone else.

I found a flaw in this. What I know, is that Jesus was one of the prophets and he did have special powers, and he did use them. But, he was not "the Jesus" who were crucified. How could people confuse the Jesus who had magic (and used it) and the Jesus who were just an ordinary man with a prophets name? Besides this one, Islam had it all wrong for 600 years. Jesus was crucified long before the foundation of Islam.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Not having a Qu'ran to hand, I shall reserve judgement. After all, most holy texta are a bizarre lot, often rife with contradiction.

i hear that alot but no one ever shows a good example..... most "contradictions" i have seen are not contradictions at all but people misinterpreting the intended meaning of the text....

meaning you interpret it as one thing and someone else interprets it as another....

and interpretation is what it is all about....

thats the real problem with people reading holy texta.....

the second problem is that according to holy texta...

[emprworm]

So if Muslims behead people because it is their culture, then I see no reason why not to, 

even if its your head on the block?

[DukeLeto]

The Muslims suffer from the same basic affliction as all religions: They do what is told to them by their religious leaders.  Said leaders simply "interpret" the Quran to say whatever is most convenient for them.  Religion is, after all, the best way to control the masses; this is especially apparent in nations which have heavily integrated religious systems, such as Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

[hide]All of the above applies for Christianity too, including the general sentiment of "Convert or die."  Sorry to burst your bubble.[/hide]

[danielsh]

I don't know if I'd indict every Muslim because of the Qu'aran. After all, the Bible says lots of nutty things... one grabs another's genitals when making an agreement, one does no work whatsoever on the Sabbath (which changes a few times in the Bible, by the by), one kills all homosexuals and witches, there should be ritual sacrifices, and so on. But nevertheless, one doesn't blame all Christians for what their holy book says---nor do all Christians follow their holy book to the letter.

[Wolf]

"In the Name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful ... whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind."

--S

[DukeLeto]

I'm not saying that the books themselves are flawed; rather, just some people's (mis)interpretations of those books.

[emprworm]

I don't know if I'd indict every Muslim because of the Qu'aran. After all, the Bible says lots of nutty things... one grabs another's genitals when making an agreement, one does no work whatsoever on the Sabbath (which changes a few times in the Bible, by the by), one kills all homosexuals and witches, there should be ritual sacrifices, and so on. But nevertheless, one doesn't blame all Christians for what their holy book says---nor do all Christians follow their holy book to the letter.

christians dont follow old testament laws.

[Wolf]

Emprworm is right about that first part; there's a reason for the New Testament, after all.

[SurlyPIG]

christians dont follow old testament laws.  by definition:  a christian follows the teachings of christ.  not the mosaic law.  you have the wrong religion here.

Is Christ not a fulfillment of OT laws, and not a replacement or contradiction to them?

"When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter against them.

[emprworm]

Is Christ not a fulfillment of OT laws, and not a replacement or contradiction to them?

thats what Christianity teaches.

[lowzeewee]

Berg was decapitated as a threat to the American occupation forces. Everytime they do something that supports their "Jihad", they would shout Islamic slogans[e.g. Allahu Akbar] as they feel it is right to do what they are doing. They do it to "counter-attack" or "take revenge" for the foreigners occupying their lands and also, for the prison abuse[which is also why Berg was beheaded].

[Anathema]

Isn't there a contradiction in "most arabs can't read" and "the only thing they can read is the Qu'ran"? ::)

In the time of Moses it was God's will that murderers were to be killed without hesitation or trial. Same with a bunch of other crimes and homosexuality.

Yet, it wasn't evil because it was God's will. Islam is claiming the same thing right now. If the Christian God would say "kill all unbelievers" it would be a good thing (according to christians).

Difference is that christianity is more compatible with what most secular minded people (wich includes watered down christians that are so common today) feel is "right". True christians however, meaning people that hold the bible as the literal truth, would say that murdering, polygamy and genocide was perfectly justifyable in ancient Israel because God told them so.

The conclusion is that nothing of this makes Islam a less credible or inherently worse then christianity.

Besides, Old Testamential law isn't even applied to it's fullest by any jew today. The common reason stated for this is because we're living in a completely different world and age. Some muslims say exactly the same thing- but you're only bashing muslims, not jews.

Another thing is the irrelevance of what the literal text of one's holy book is. There are liberal muslims who disaprove of capital punishment and there have been christians who burnt innocent people on stakes. You should judge persons rather then religions.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Isn't there a contradiction in "most arabs can't read" and "the only thing they can read is the Qu'ran"? ::)

In the time of Moses it was God's will that murderers were to be killed without hesitation or trial. Same with a bunch of other crimes and homosexuality.

Yet, it wasn't evil because it was God's will. Islam is claiming the same thing right now. If the Christian God would say "kill all unbelievers" it would be a good thing (according to christians).

Difference is that christianity is more compatible with what most secular minded people (wich includes watered down christians that are so common today) feel is "right". True christians however, meaning people that hold the bible as the literal truth, would say that murdering, polygamy and genocide was perfectly justifyable in ancient Israel because God told them so.

The conclusion is that nothing of this makes Islam a less credible or inherently worse then christianity.

Besides, Old Testamential law isn't even applied to it's fullest by any jew today. The common reason stated for this is because we're living in a completely different world and age. Some muslims say exactly the same thing- but you're only bashing muslims, not jews.

Another thing is the irrelevance of what the literal text of one's holy book is. There are liberal muslims who disaprove of capital punishment and there have been christians who burnt innocent people on stakes. You should judge persons rather then religions.

emprworm is saying that the jews and the muslims dont have a "New Testament"  Thus they would still be bound by  "killing infidels"

Christians are not bound by such things....  because we have a new testament.

[emprworm]

Whatever examples people can cite from ancient history of religions butchering people, it is irrelevant, unless it reflects today.

[emprworm]

found this interesting piece in the UK Observer today:

Sure enough, until very recently women (and men) were being stoned to death in Iran for adultery. In July 2001, according to the Financial Times, a Maryam Ayoubi was executed at Tehran's Evin prison at dawn. Iranian newspapers carried an account of her being ritually washed, wrapped in a white shroud and then carried to the place of execution on a stretcher where she was buried up to her armpits. There were many such stonings during the Nineties.

In 2003 an aide to the governor of the Iranian province of Khuzestan told the press that his office had received reports of the murder of 45 young women in a two-month period in honour killings. None of these crimes were prosecuted. Honour killings are rife in Pakistan, and there are a large number in Iraqi Kurdistan. In Jordan the sentence for carrying out an honour killing is set at six months. In the first part of this year more than a dozen Jordanian women were killed by their relations for having 'sullied the reputation of their family'.

The other night I met a progressive American journalist - hated Bush, was, on balance, against the war in Iraq. Somehow we got to talking about capital punishment in the US, and he told me it (Islamic butcherings) didn't bother him too much, though he knew the English didn't like it. 'I guess it's a cultural thing,' he said.

If that's true, then what the hell is it all for? Why tell the Mississippi folk how to treat their 'nigras'? Ain't that cultural? And wouldn't it have been less imperialistic of Robinson Crusoe to tell Man Friday that he ought to go back to the cannibals because, on the whole, it would be better for him to be eaten?

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1217930,00.html

[danielsh]

I certainly wasn't trying to "inject anti-Christian intolerance" into the discussion, I was simply making a point about the fact that ancient texts tend to reflect ancient oddities. And although you're right, I only chose examples from the Old Testament, the New has the occasional gem as well:

• Romans 1:26--32
  
• 1 Thessalonians 2:14--15
  
• 1 Corinthians 11:14 (More an oddity than an evil.)
  
• 1 Corinthians 6:18--20
  
• 1 Corinthians 14:34--35
  
• And so on...
  

It's got its good bits, of course. Communism, anyone? (Acts 2:44-45.)

Again, my point isn't to criticize Christians, my point is that I would no more blame Muslims for what their holy book says than Christians for the same. And furthermore, if I heard of a devout Christian doing any of the things the Bible recommends, I wouldn't say, "Aha, it's clearly the Bible's fault," I would say, "That isn't nice."

[emprworm]

Again, my point isn't to criticize Christians,

of course it is.  dont lie Dan.  you hate Christianity with a passion, and have little capacity to keep a non-christian religious argument on topic.  You cannot resist the urges (you give in to urges rather easily Dan) to make your anti-christian plug.

A christian by definition is one who follows the teachings of Jesus.

you cite some narrative accounts, some old testament Judaism, but nothing you have cited is a teaching of Jesus. 

Dan your bigotry is coming to light here.  Please try your best (i know its soooooooooo hard) to stay on topic....which is ISLAM.

(Hint Dan:  Islam is a major world religion, which is not the same as Christianity....or as ur atheists buddies would say Xtianity)

[GUNWOUNDS]

I certainly wasn't trying to "inject anti-Christian intolerance" into the discussion, I was simply making a point about the fact that ancient texts tend to reflect ancient oddities. And although you're right, I only chose examples from the Old Testament, the New has the occasional gem as well:

• Romans 1:26--32
  Romans 1:26--32
  1 Thessalonians 2:14--15
  1 Corinthians 11:14 (More an oddity than an evil.)
  1 Corinthians 6:18--20
  1 Corinthians 14:34--35
  

ok for this scripture i scanned it and this must be the tidbit that you find offensive.... however i dont see this as evil or odd...

[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

yes it sounds harsh but it doesnt sound unreasonable or evil..... this doesnt sound like "convert or DIE"

[Andrew]

even if its your head on the block?

Well yes.

We should not say that it is wrong, and that they should now simply put people in POW camps instead of beheading them if beheading is their way of punishment in their culture.

You can't go to another country and say "no that is not how we do it in our country so you are wrong and should do it the way we do".

If American culture is to simply drop bombs on their enemy from planes, that is their culture/military tactics. Terrorists should not have to comply with that tactic/culture.