A note on Leto II's Death

[TMA_1]

I am starting GEOD right now and I noticed something.

It is only a sentance long but it said that if Leto II didnt die in water, that all the sandtrout would be lost. I mean it is blunt, says exactly that.

Now from what I remember in the book, the planned assassination was going to be done on the bridge over the river idaho. If I remember right though they didnt take water into play, I mean they didnt realize that if he woudlnt have died in water the spice cycle would have been utterly lost and probably the golden path would be at stake. Though the cycle largely died out during Leto II's reign he did know that he would spawn new worms, but it seems taht the assassins didnt know this.

it is almost providence that did it, I dont know what do you guys think?

(also I found it, leto said that one single sandtrout can eventually grow into a large sandworm.)

[nemafakei]

He took a route knowing he would be vulnerable over water. He chose to die in water, and he knew that the assassins would attack him there if he took that route, even though they did not know that this was the most important reason for this site.

[Vanguard3000]

Yes.  He could "see" his impending death, at least through the Duncan, who had no Atreides genes (I forget if Nayla had any, although I assume so), and thus chose to take the road which crossed the Idaho River.

In a sense, Leto had machinated his own demise, allowing humanity to take the final step down the Golden Path.

[SpiceGuid]

Just as the Tleilaxus have used Paul vision to trap him in blindness, the Ixians use LetoII monstruosity to trap him in love.

LetoII has to kill the Duncan or to be killed by him.

But LetoII has nothing more human but love.

Thus he can't kill the Duncan because they are rivals.

Killing a rival would not be fair love.

LetoII doesn't know Idaho River is the end.

But he leaves the possibility opened.

And sure the end is not totally fortuitous, it's conform to his project.

The ironical is the Duncan feels free but whatever he does, he serves.

That's why i disagree with Duncan as the real Dune hero.

Duncan is pathetic and jalous.

Duncan is the flesh, not less but not more.

Of course he knowns he will spawn new worms, but as he lives he is the unique worm, he is the unique god, hoping humanity will forget idols.

Also he dies before his worm mutation is completed, may be later would be too late, may be there should be at least some humanity in god.

A god is a mix of love and tyranny, the Ixians believe they destroy the tyran using love, but actually they complete the process of deification.

[TMA_1]

yeah totally, I was just getting at this point, that I dont think the assassins knew how important Leto II's choice of death was, or how important it was that he died in water. know what I mean?

[Terror]

I don't think the water problem would be that big. I bet those sand forells could've survived anywhere on Arrakis except for the desert perhaps.

On the other hand, sand forells in the original Dune became sand worms too, and at that time Arrakis was a desert planet. How do you explain that?

[TMA_1]

no, it is the only way the sandtrout could have made it to water in order to form the sandtrout bundles so that they could evolve into the great worms. They have to suck all the moisture in order to create the waste product of spice which from what Ican surmise, changes their characteristics o create the worms.

[Terror]

But then how come sand forells turned into sandworms in the timeline of the first Leto?.

[TMA_1]

well thats the reason why arrakis was so dry, they would go deep underground and suck up all the moisture. The only reason I can think it was improtant to be near water is because the sandtrout were attached to Leto II so long that they n eeded to be clsoe by lots of water in order to work their process.

[SpiceGuid]

there is also this Dune magic: nobody controls anything, yet everything seems under control.

[NHJ BV]

well thats the reason why arrakis was so dry, they would go deep underground and suck up all the moisture. The only reason I can think it was improtant to be near water is because the sandtrout were attached to Leto II so long that they n eeded to be clsoe by lots of water in order to work their process.

But if they would go deep underground to find water on the early desert Arrakis, surely they can survive if they would go underground on the new Arrakis?

[TMA_1]

yeah thats why I said they must have been weakened or troubled after being apart of Leto II for so long, which was not natural for them at all.

[web_head]

Leto died?  :'(

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...........

btw. Children of Dune is the best movie I have ever seen...

[Vanguard3000]

Children of Dune is the best movie I have ever seen...

Man, you must have seen some pretty crappy movies...

[TMA_1]

lol jeez vanguard that was cold!

[Terror]

It was actually pretty good IMO. Not the best, but good nonetheless.

[SpiceGuid]

not the best movie, but easily the best SF miniserie.

may be less emphasis on ecology could have made it more profound, but it's really difficult to balance such a multi-layered novel.

[web_head]

Man, you must have seen some pretty crappy movies...

lol  ;)

[Alexander_Ordos]

Sandrouts love water, they feed upon and they can't survive without it. The more water there is for a sandrout the faster it will evolve. It's that wierd spice cycle that F.H created, the first stage is a complete contrarery to the final stage of evolution.

Leto II knew when, where and how he would die. I believe he planned his death for himself. River full of water was a perfect place for the start of the cycle. His fishspeaker general also believed she was doing what was supposed to be done, when she fired at the bridge. On the other hand Duncan and the other rebels didn't think wide about the consequences of Leto II's death, they wanted to take him out being driven by mere anger and revenge.

Talking about COD, well it is crap in compare with Matrix and other expensive movies, but it's a marvel for Dune community. I liked it alot because I like stuff about Dune  :)

[3ngel]

A VERY important thing to remember is that Leto choses to die or better (if we want to believe what he says : <I can't see WHEN i'll die>) he "risks" to die, ONLY because Siona was born and she passed the desert-test, and the universe was ready to scatter. Infact signals of rebellions were become very audacious, from Ixians with laser-duncan and Hiwhi Noree, and the Duncan himself is a clear Tleilaxu manipulation "'cause is so different from all the previous ones."

Oh well, a word about Duncan. I hate IT in every part. He's so stupid, so limited in his thinking, so non-thinking, so close-mind, so driven by anger, only a puppet piece of trash :) As Moneo says :"You're only an ancient model".

It's because of him that Siona and Nyala were forced to climb the wall of "Tuono" in the end. Without him, Leto would not been killed. With him, the entire golden path was put dangerously in the hand of one person, Siona. Stupid piece of trash!

:)

[3ngel]

I'm talking about the Duncan in GEOD

[3ngel]

Well, he IS a different person after GEOD, because i think at least 2k years have passed since then :)

He's stupid because if he didn't know what to think or what to do, then its only role was to be devoted to Hatreides' House in the person of Leto, that is all the Atreides ever existed. Moreover he's an arrogant and pathetically mind-limited, he's not able to integrate himself in the current GEOD time and pretend to know what is wrong and what is right (with that pathetic scene with Moneo in the Fish Speaker general quarter about a lesbian army).

[Andrew]

I think Duncan would be quite confused and angered at the fact that he is a tool, and that there is nothing he can do about it, since they will simply make another. This would be mostly true in GEoD, although he was still recreated afterwards lots.

[Aristeas]

Well, he IS a different person after GEOD, because i think at least 2k years have passed since then :)

He's stupid because if he didn't know what to think or what to do, then its only role was to be devoted to Hatreides' House in the person of Leto, that is all the Atreides ever existed. Moreover he's an arrogant and pathetically mind-limited, he's not able to integrate himself in the current GEOD time and pretend to know what is wrong and what is right (with that pathetic scene with Moneo in the Fish Speaker general quarter about a lesbian army).

Who says anything about a lesbian army?  The Fish Speakers are all female but I recall no mention of them being all lesbians.  What Idaho is uncomfortable with is the fact that they're all female.  He doesn't agree with Leto's theory that women make for a better and more sociologically healthy army.  Did he have a limited mind? Maybe, but what was happening around him went against many of the social mores' that were ingrained into him. Arrogant? I don't see that either.  Also, I feel that he has a very good grasp of right and wrong from his own point of view.

Leto II knew when, where and how he would die.

On the contrary, thats one of the few things he doesn't know (up until just before it happens) and he doesn't want to know either. He could know if he looked into the future to see it but he makes a concious effort not to do this.  Not knowing the how and when of his demise is one of the ways he attempts to escape boredom. He's thrilled by potentially deadly surprises.  After being around for thousands of years you would be too.

And yes...Duncan Idaho is quite worthy of respect.  IMHO, he's the most straight shooting and honorable character in the series.

[3ngel]

@Aristeas

The Fish Speaker are all Lesbians in the first part of their training, 'cause (as Moneo says) they have to exorcise their childish sexual pulsations. Duncan is frustratred by this fact above all things, when he goes in the Fish Speaker School in order to speak to Moneo, and he sees here and there Fish Speakers who kiss each others and do other things. Infact at this point moneo is tired of making explanation and says: "You're only an ancient model.."

The wrong thing in Idaho is the fact that he doesn't understand or better he DOESN'T WANT to understand the things around him, 'cause he's exactly an ancient human revision. Moreover to worse the situation i think that is clear the Tleilaxlu influence in his dna, making him more and more aggressive (and so stupid) than all before (that were rebels too).

In the end, Idaho is guilty until a certain point, beyond it's not depending by his conscious will.

But all this was pre-viewed in the final part by Leto who chose voluntary to go to Tuono and "go on the scene" to give Siona the "last lesson".