Aristeas Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Well, he IS a different person after GEOD, because i think at least 2k years have passed since then :)He's stupid because if he didn't know what to think or what to do, then its only role was to be devoted to Hatreides' House in the person of Leto, that is all the Atreides ever existed. Moreover he's an arrogant and pathetically mind-limited, he's not able to integrate himself in the current GEOD time and pretend to know what is wrong and what is right (with that pathetic scene with Moneo in the Fish Speaker general quarter about a lesbian army).Who says anything about a lesbian army? The Fish Speakers are all female but I recall no mention of them being all lesbians. What Idaho is uncomfortable with is the fact that they're all female. He doesn't agree with Leto's theory that women make for a better and more sociologically healthy army. Did he have a limited mind? Maybe, but what was happening around him went against many of the social mores' that were ingrained into him. Arrogant? I don't see that either. Also, I feel that he has a very good grasp of right and wrong from his own point of view. Leto II knew when, where and how he would die.On the contrary, thats one of the few things he doesn't know (up until just before it happens) and he doesn't want to know either. He could know if he looked into the future to see it but he makes a concious effort not to do this. Not knowing the how and when of his demise is one of the ways he attempts to escape boredom. He's thrilled by potentially deadly surprises. After being around for thousands of years you would be too. And yes...Duncan Idaho is quite worthy of respect. IMHO, he's the most straight shooting and honorable character in the series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ngel Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 @AristeasThe Fish Speaker are all Lesbians in the first part of their training, 'cause (as Moneo says) they have to exorcise their childish sexual pulsations. Duncan is frustratred by this fact above all things, when he goes in the Fish Speaker School in order to speak to Moneo, and he sees here and there Fish Speakers who kiss each others and do other things. Infact at this point moneo is tired of making explanation and says: "You're only an ancient model.."The wrong thing in Idaho is the fact that he doesn't understand or better he DOESN'T WANT to understand the things around him, 'cause he's exactly an ancient human revision. Moreover to worse the situation i think that is clear the Tleilaxlu influence in his dna, making him more and more aggressive (and so stupid) than all before (that were rebels too). In the end, Idaho is guilty until a certain point, beyond it's not depending by his conscious will.But all this was pre-viewed in the final part by Leto who chose voluntary to go to Tuono and "go on the scene" to give Siona the "last lesson". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectral Paladin Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 Moreover to worse the situation i think that is clear the Tleilaxlu influence in his dna, making him more and more aggressive (and so stupid) than all before (that were rebels too).This is wrong. Leto made sure there was no tleilaxu influence in Idaho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 This is wrong. Leto made sure there was no tleilaxu influence in Idaho.You are correct. The Tleilaxu once made an altered (in a bad way) Duncan Idaho and Leto was forced to kill him and punish the Tleilaxu. If my memory is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ngel Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 @Spectral PaladinMmm... to tell the truth i don't remember that is written anywhere that Leto do a specific control in order to test if a Ghola is genetically altered. The only thing he does is to question "You fell altered?", and the Ghola obviously says "No". This test would be only valid if the Ghola was a Mentat like the first Ghola at the time of Paul Muadib. Only in that case the answer "I fell unaltered" is valid 'cause of the mentat complex basis and concepts.So i think it's coerent and plausible with the events in GEOD (and the comments of the characters about the "so difference" of the ghola) that he was altered. Moreover Leto liked the surprises and so he permitted the ghola's existence; moreover he knew that ghola was necessary at his scopes (that is to became the "Divided God").@AndrewThey were the Ixians that did something stupid and were punished badly, he speaks of this with Hhiwi Noree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectral Paladin Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 I 'm not sure he knew the specific would have a part in his death. Andrew is right, Leto did punish the Tleilaxu for making an altered ghola (he also punished the ixians for something else but it has nothing to do with this). Apart from the question, Leto had another way of ensuring the ghola was not altered which is not specified in the book - a prescient search perhaps? No matter what it is, Moneo waited for Leto's conclusion and trusted it which means it was 100% correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristeas Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 @AristeasThe Fish Speaker are all Lesbians in the first part of their training, 'cause (as Moneo says) they have to exorcise their childish sexual pulsations. Duncan is frustratred by this fact above all things, when he goes in the Fish Speaker School in order to speak to Moneo, and he sees here and there Fish Speakers who kiss each others and do other things. Infact at this point moneo is tired of making explanation and says: "You're only an ancient model.."The wrong thing in Idaho is the fact that he doesn't understand or better he DOESN'T WANT to understand the things around him, 'cause he's exactly an ancient human revision. Moreover to worse the situation i think that is clear the Tleilaxlu influence in his dna, making him more and more aggressive (and so stupid) than all before (that were rebels too). In the end, Idaho is guilty until a certain point, beyond it's not depending by his conscious will.But all this was pre-viewed in the final part by Leto who chose voluntary to go to Tuono and "go on the scene" to give Siona the "last lesson". I had forgotten about that part with the Fish Speaker's sexual experimentation with each other...still...I wouldn't classify the Fish Speakers as a lesbian army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMA_1 Posted July 8, 2005 Author Share Posted July 8, 2005 I think that Leto II not only used him for his genetic tinkering, but also for his own personal whims. To Leto II, duncan was an anachronism. Duncan reminded Leto II of his humanity, of his past before his transformation. In a sense I think Leto looked on duncan as his old friend. Leto II is an extremely odd creature near the end of his life, and he clings to the last remaining threads of his humanity. Duncan made him feel human. I dont think Leto II needed his counsel by the end of Leto's life. Duncan had already created the idea of the festival city and trained the fish speakers to their full potential. Duncan near the end was used mainly for his genes. Both in his breeding experiments and because Leto II knew that after he passed away that Duncan would then in turn be with Siona and start a new line. That and Duncan was probably the only real link to the past of Leto.The fishspeakers were not really lesbian. In fact many were married with children if you would remember. The sexual relationships within the fish speaker ranks created a maternal and sexual bond that would make their connection with eachother so strong in battle that they would literally die for one another. It was all apart of making them the best fighting force, and it is an important part of why Leto II chose women as his soldiers, because of that bond that would be ten times stronger then the bond between fellow male comrades in battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectral Paladin Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 If you think about it, Leto didn't need counsel from anyone, not just Duncan. The aim of Leto for the last Duncan was i) mating with Siona, ii) leading the Fish Speakers after his death Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ngel Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 @Spectral PaladinCan you point me to the page where it's said about a Tleilaxu punishment for an altered ghola? I don't remember that, and it could change my opinion about the Duncan Idaho tleilaxu alteration. I can only remember it's said about a Ix punishment (with Hiwy). Thanks.About the lesbians i've said :"The Fish Speaker are all lesbians IN THE FIRST PART of their training", not at all.The rest you've said it's correct :).A little OT:I'm reading for the ^n time, heretics... and i think it's the MOST COMPLEX of all the six books regarding the plot and regarding "who did what, and why". It's absolutely cryptic, and even now the only "reading key" i see, that can explain the actions of all the characters is only one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectral Paladin Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 It should appear elsewhere too but I will quote from the chapter comprised of Bene Gesserit reports:THE TLEILAXU: We do not expect the new ghola of Duncan Idaho to provide any surprises. The Tleilaxu continue to be much chastened by the Lord Leto's reaction to their one attempt at changing the cellular nature and the psyche of the original.That should be enough.Heretics and Chapterhouse are my 2 favorites of the series but I think I like Chapterhouse more - that is the most complex imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ngel Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 Your quote is from the original english version?? Or some other translation?EDIT : Holy Shit, i've seen the original text and the italian translation is all messed up!!! NOOOO f***ckin b****ard!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectral Paladin Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 It's english. But it's a recent version (don't think that matters). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ngel Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 Read the edit above... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectral Paladin Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 Yea, that's the downside of not reading books in the original language. Still your own quote proves you wrong in what you said earlier: Moreover to worse the situation i think that is clear the Tleilaxlu influence in his dna, making him more and more aggressive (and so stupid) than all before (that were rebels too). as your quote implies there never was a modification to Duncan, nor will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ngel Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 No, if my translation was right, my opinion would be possible because Tleilaxlu are only AFRAID of a POSSIBLE reaction by leto, but after, pushed by frustration, and NOT BEING PUNISHED YET, join themselves with the ixians in a big conspiration that would involve Hiwhy (from the Ix side) and Duncan (from the Tleilaxu side). In this scenario is perfectly plausible, because Leto would not known about Duncan modification for 2 reasons:1) He doesn't use pre-science because he loves surprises2) Because he asks him : "You feel modified?"And even if Leto would know about Duncan modification he would eventually like it, 'cause it's "different from its routine".But from the english text we know that Leto didn't like the Duncan modification suprise :DSo it can't be possible.Damn tranlation again! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner154 Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 I had always thought Leto could not foretell his death, not forgetting that Siona is not present in his visions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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