Innocent Palestinians

[Wolf]

"Quote from: Wolfwiz on Today at 13:09:25

The difference between Israel and Palestine is that Palestine specifically targets civilians while Israel specifically targets the people who specifically target civilians.

'And what is Palestine supposed to do, exactly? Target heavily armed military camps who have 100 times more firepower than all the Palestinians combined? They are outgunned and have NO CHOICE but to target civilians - or surrender.' "

So, Edric, what you are telling me that, because Palestine does not have any other alternative, they should attack civilians? So, because it is stupid to attack an armed camp, they are justified in attacking unarmed pregnant women, and children? Wow.

That doesn't make sense, they shouldn't be attacking anyone, period. And, until they stop doing so, the IDF has no other recourse but to hunt down those who target civilians -- much in the matter I stated.

*EDIT: Thinking about it again, Edric, you really did make a mistake when you said "And what is Palestine supposed to do, exactly?". You essentially defended the terrorist actions of Palestine in your attack against the terrorist actions of Israel. And you are arguing on the grounds that terrorism is wrong. Wow. It shouldn't take a genius, at this point...

[GUNWOUNDS]

Wolfwiz i have noticed in many threads you have become much more aggressive in stating what you believe and what your feelings are when you feel people are in the wrong

[Wolf]

I have noticed the same thing. It is only for the first time that I have felt sufficiently angered by what appear to me as injustices that I now feel the need to take an aggressive stance. I still consider my positions moderate, and I feel that Edric is trying to make a good point, because Edric is much more well-spoken and informed than I, but I don't think one should get away with a statement with those sorts of implications unless they truly understand the most vehement oppostion to that statement.

[SurlyPIG]

I think the IDF doesn't really give a damn. They know they can get away with just about anything. They have no reason to specifically target civilians, of course, but if civilians just happen to stand in their way...

So now you have ESP or something?  The IDF puts more restrictions on their soldiers than the UN puts on peacekeepers for crying out loud.  If the IDF didn't give a damn about Palestinian civillians, there would be no Palestinians in Israel.  They would be dead or expelled.

Do I have a better idea? No, I do not. But unless you've been living under a rock for the better part of the 20th century, you should know by now that the current Israeli policy isn't working.

I doubt you will accept this but there is no policy that *CAN* work.  There is no possible stance or strategy that has a flying hope in hell of working within at least a few generations.

No, they are merely evil. It doesn't matter how you blow yourself up - the act of blowing yourself up takes guts.

No, it takes selfishness and greed, which is something I thought you hated.  If suicide bombers weren't promised an eternity of salvation and however many dozen virgins it is, Israeli citizens wouldn't have to live in fear of being blown to bits every time they step outside their homes.

And what is Palestine supposed to do, exactly? Target heavily armed military camps who have 100 times more firepower than all the Palestinians combined? They are outgunned and have NO CHOICE but to target civilians - or surrender.

So you're slandering us for not condemning (not justifying, just not condemning) Israel for killing innocent civillians, while you are justifying Palestinians for intentionally killing innocent civillians?  I hope this is just an off-day because that's just back-asswards.

And I wonder what Gandhi would have to say about that statement.

[leo]

And I wonder what Gandhi would have to say about that statement.

:'(

[leo]

...except occupying their country and taking their land.

LOL

We agreed to divide this land into 2, while we got only a very small peace of it. They were offered much much more than we and they still didn't agree, in fact they and their Arab friends attacked us with all their power to occupy all these lands and probably to kick us out of here.

Between 1948 and 1967 there were massive terror attacks from the Palestinians, Syrians and Jordan's so we conquered their land to s top it. There is no other way to stop it. Before we held those lands and after we always tried to negotiate for peace. We offered them all their lands back but they still didn't agree. Today, we still offer them and guess what? They still don

[Emperor Harkonnen]

the reason for this is because paltestinians are intolerant and hate all other religions than their own.

They hate the fact that the mightiest countries world wide are christian, and that Islam has lost their power. And they are to proud to let jews live in their land.

I liked the middle-east better when it was occupied by the British Empire.

[Anathema]

About the previous post, I'd like to point out that Arafat is a christian.

The Palestinians of course are the "bad guys", but this can be expected seeing how they are forced to live.

[Caid Ivik]

I liked the middle-east better when it was occupied by the British Empire.

How old are you?  ;D

[Dante]

I liked the middle-east better when it was occupied by the British Empire.

Some might say the same of the USA. My, how the tables have turned...  >:(

[Dude_Doc]

Personally, I think the gurellia and the terrorists in both Iraq and Palestine are stupid. The question I ask them is why they attack all the time, why not make up bigger plans or something like that? It seems they have no tactics at all, and they're using explosives in the wrong way.

I mean, if I were an post-Saddam general on the run, I'd wait with the attacks until the US troops were out of the country, then I'd attack and take it all back - or die trying.

[Terror]

Pfff, i'm sooo tired of these terrorists... if the entire world would just help chase these terrorists, and NOT give them assylium we would be rid of these pesky mofo's in no time. But because certain governments secretly support these terrorists this war will never be over. Nonetheless i support the Americans in their desision to start a ruthless campaign against all terrorists. It is ofcourse incredibly sad that innocent people die, both by terrorist attacks and American mistakes. But if we don't do anything, the number of terrorist attacks will grow. They got this far, but we just drew the line. Death to all terrorists...

Every nation has his right to defend it's inhabitants.

[Dante]

People because terrorists for a reason. To stop them being terrorists, you have to attempt to solve that reason. Heavy-handed military action will only incite more to violence.

[Terror]

For a reason yes, well what is that reason? The only thing Bin Laden strives for is the destruction of the western capitalist nations, especially the US. Well how can we solve that problem?

[Dante]

Or perhaps simply less Western meddling in the affairs of the East? That's the impression I got. "Leave us alone, stop imposing on us, we don't want you." Kind of thing.

[Terror]

Hmmm perhaps yes. So they want to be on their own. Well that would be cool for me. Let them do everything they want in their own ways.

But if all those middle eastern countries stay behind in wealth, and the people only fight among each other they shouldn't come and whine for the US to help, or for the US to sell weapons. We could also make a new country for all the people who want nothing to do with us in any way. They can create their own civilization, grow their own food, do everything themselves.

But realy, i don't think that will happen. You see, there's good muslims and there's bad muslims... I have muslim friends, and i like them as much as any other, but why can't all muslims be good muslims? After the terrorist attack on 11 september when our policy against the muslims became more strict, the muslims said that people all interpret the Koran different. To someone the Koran says to live in peace and whatever with everyone. However to other muslims, the Koran tells them to do everything they can to destroy the "western" nations and they will be rewarded and go to heaven get 7 virgins or something etc.. I don't know about you but if all those people read the Koran like that, this world is going to be one big hell. I would love to live in peace and as equals, but then they should respect our ways of living too.

i have a good example.

A few weeks ago i went to the swimming pool with a couple of friends. Over there, there was a large group of muslim youngsters. We were just swimming and walked near them. Then one of my friends sat near the swimming pool and accidently sat on the hand of one of those boys. He said sorry and moved. But that boy just became so angry and said stuff like. What the hell are you doing eh? and his friends came and they made a big problem of it. And we started arguing. And then they called us cheeseheads and said that we should serve them.

We came with the argument: We gave you the possibility to come here and live in our country, why do you think like this? . But they were not tolerant at all, we were being very reasonable and they even started blarting out racistic stuff against us. Not that it realy mattered to us.. we just wanted to get rid of them and go home. But they kept following us etc.. When we took a shower, dressed and went outside the entire group was waiting outside for us... ready to fight. If it wasn't for the help of a lot of our friends who were also outside we realy would've gotten into a fight.

I know this story is kinda messy and hard to read. If i could only write in dutch... ;)

Well anyway, many moslims are cool. But also many... way to many of them are just not being reasonable at all..

[lowzeewee]

"Arafat is a christian"

Really?

Regardless of who they target,only the victims' innocent-civillian-or-offender status is important.If both Isr. and Pal. kill 10 innocent people each and Israel's aim is to kill HAMAS while Palestine's aim is to kill innocent,it doesn't make difference.In the end,still 10 innocent people are killed.

I blow up a bomb in your house and you are paralysed,but I meant to damage your house,not you.:'(

[TMA_1]

whoa earthnuker, you nuts or something? ;) hehe

I highly doubt arafat is a christian. I mean dont get me wrong, he could be, it might just be possible as that is between the Lord and him, but I doubt it from a tad bit of experiance at seeing the actions of people and their statements. I mean I highly doubt it as I have heard him make statements that point to a strong belief in the one God without essense, Allah.

Now devout muslims, I mean muslims that actually care to study the koran (many, and it is a sad thing because christians should be so devout) actually see Jesus as a prophet. Not just to please the world community, or to try and look good to the west. They really do see Jesus as a real honest to goodness prophet, so maybe that is where the confusion is?

That was just a side note, no need to post too much on it as it might twist the whole thread.

anyways I fail to see how the israelis are the oppressors and the thieves. They did not occupy the lands, the UN gave it to them by a slim vote. Not only this, but the people who settled in palistine are largely (not fully but largely) from two groups. There are muslims who can trace lineages back hundreds of years, as well as Jews (who's ancestors actually helped the muslims fight against the crusaders way back).

Then you have those who came from neighboring countries. How are they the rightful owners of the land when they only recently settled in israel? Not only that, how can they settle in a land that was a british protectorate? lol

[Edric O]

or perhaps it is not their land.

Well, no one has any right to own land anyway, but that's besides the point...

So, Edric, what you are telling me that, because Palestine does not have any other alternative, they should attack civilians? So, because it is stupid to attack an armed camp, they are justified in attacking unarmed pregnant women, and children? Wow.

That doesn't make sense, they shouldn't be attacking anyone, period. And, until they stop doing so, the IDF has no other recourse but to hunt down those who target civilians -- much in the matter I stated.

*EDIT: Thinking about it again, Edric, you really did make a mistake when you said "And what is Palestine supposed to do, exactly?". You essentially defended the terrorist actions of Palestine in your attack against the terrorist actions of Israel. And you are arguing on the grounds that terrorism is wrong. Wow. It shouldn't take a genius, at this point...

Hmmm, well, Gunwounds always wanted to hear me say I was wrong about something, didn't he? I hope he's reading this now, because I have to admit you're right, Wolfwiz. If Israeli state terrorism is evil, then Palestinian terrorism is equally evil. If Palestinian terrorism can be justified, then Israeli state terrorism can also be justified. So yes, I was wrong, because I was contradicting my own position.

So now you have ESP or something?  The IDF puts more restrictions on their soldiers than the UN puts on peacekeepers for crying out loud.  If the IDF didn't give a damn about Palestinian civillians, there would be no Palestinians in Israel.  They would be dead or expelled.

You asked me what I think, and I told you what I think. As for the restrictions the IDF puts on its soldiers, can you show me the rulebook that actually says what those restrictions are? (it's an honest question - I'm curious)

Furthermore, while the IDF can get away with almost anything, genocide would be a little too much... They would face the wrath of the entire world if they tried that.

I doubt you will accept this but there is no policy that *CAN* work.  There is no possible stance or strategy that has a flying hope in hell of working within at least a few generations.

I incline to agree with you. And that's precisely why I don't take sides in this conflict. You're defending Israel. I'm saying both sides are equally bad.

No, it takes selfishness and greed, which is something I thought you hated.  If suicide bombers weren't promised an eternity of salvation and however many dozen virgins it is, Israeli citizens wouldn't have to live in fear of being blown to bits every time they step outside their homes.

So any action that is religiously motivated is done out of selfishness and greed? A Christian or Muslim or Jew who gives his life to save 20 little children from a fire is just a selfish bastard? Ghandi was just a selfish bastard?

So you're slandering us for not condemning (not justifying, just not condemning) Israel for killing innocent civillians, while you are justifying Palestinians for intentionally killing innocent civillians?  I hope this is just an off-day because that's just back-asswards.

I was under the impression that you were justifying Israel's actions.

But other than that, you're right, I was contradicting myself back then and I admit my mistake. See my reply to Wolfwiz.

[Edric O]

the reason for this is because paltestinians are intolerant and hate all other religions than their own.

They hate the fact that the mightiest countries world wide are christian...

Replace "palestinians" with "jews" in that statement, and you have a quote from Mein Kampf...

[ordos45]

As for the restrictions the IDF puts on its soldiers, can you show me the rulebook that actually says what those restrictions are? (it's an honest question - I'm curious)

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/IDF_ethics.html

Not the restrictions I was searching for, but a basic framework of beliefs... a shortened version, along with nightmarish scenarios that have occurred can be found here:

http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief3-8.htm

1.  Military action can only be taken against military targets.

2.  The use of force must be proportional.

3.  Soldiers may only use weaponry they were issued by the IDF.

4.  Anyone who surrenders cannot be attacked.

5.  Only those who are properly trained can interrogate prisoners.

6.  Soldiers must accord dignity and respect to the Palestinian population and those arrested.

7.  Soldiers must give appropriate medical care, when conditions allow, to oneself and one's enemy.

8.  Pillaging is absolutely and totally illegal.

9.  Soldiers must show proper respect for religious and cultural sites and artifacts.

10.  Soldiers must protect international aid workers, including their property and vehicles.

11.  Soldiers must report all violations of this code.

[Wolf]

Yes, the Palestinians and Israelis are about equally guilty in their actions because they have both killed innocents.

[leo]

An Israeli officer was arrested today becasue he accidently killed a palestinian(that Palestinain was throwing rocks). I don't know how I can proove it but it made today's headlines in all Israeli newspapers/sites and TV.

Here is a link to the "Haaretz" newspaper, it's in english:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/423115.html

[Emperor Harkonnen]

How old are you?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Or perhaps simply less Western meddling in the affairs of the East? That's the impression I got. "Leave us alone, stop imposing on us, we don't want you." Kind of thing.

it is an endless circle.... giving them what they want wont solve anything....  if we do stop meddling in their affairs and whatever else it is they want... they willjust find something new to be pissed about.... or they will say we didnt do their original ultimatum well enuf... its like trying to please those you cannot ever please.

wake up.

:-