Capital Punishment

[Warskum]

I am just wondering what people think about it, should there be Capital Punishment in all countries? I myslef am not sure if its a good thing or bad, since I believe in God, i believe that only God has the right to take away a live.

I Holland punshisments are a joke, the worst punishments here is 28 years i believe(not 100% sure, it could be 25 years to). So this means a murderer can kill 10 people, go to jail for a few years, and after he is out of jail he can kill another 10 people. So IMO its better to kill the murderer and save lives. So i am not sure wether its a good thing or a bad thing. Doesnt executing someone makes you a murderer to? Are you any better then the murderer itself wenn you execute someone, or give the order to do so? If you are against it, what punishment do you think the murderer should get?

Just want to hear some thoughts about this.

[HasimirFenring]

Capital punishment is such a difficult issue...  For the murderer you mentioned, execution isn't the only safe solution.  How about life in prison without a chance of release?  I suppose I would see executions as permissible if (and only if) there is no shadow of a doubt about the person's guilt.  If more evidence comes to light later showing a person was innocent...oops, you can't release them from prison and say you're sorry if they're already dead.  Capital punishment has its place; I would like to think that an enlightened society wouldn't need it, but I know that is foolishly optimistic.

[Egeides]

I think that the punishment should be the one that will permit to diminish crime as much as possible. Since capital punishment is said to bring more instead of less crime, it is invalid for me. And since harsher justice doesn't automatically bring better results for the society, it is not necessarily relevant.

[danielsh]

I think that the prison system should focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment. Also, I think that a person's right to appeal the court's decision should never be taken from him. A murderer should certainly be incarcerated for more than 28 years, but teaching morality through fear of punishment strikes me as absurd and ineffective.

[Warskum]

Capital punishment is such a difficult issue...  For the murderer you mentioned, execution isn't the only safe solution.  How about life in prison without a chance of release?  I suppose I would see executions as permissible if (and only if) there is no shadow of a doubt about the person's guilt.  If more evidence comes to light later showing a person was innocent...oops, you can't release them from prison and say you're sorry if they're already dead.  Capital punishment has its place; I would like to think that an enlightened society wouldn't need it, but I know that is foolishly optimistic.

I understand and agree with you, but lets assume that the murderer IS guilty, what would you prefer then, life prison? but what if he manages to escape and kill other people? Isnt it better to kill one man and save others?

And what about people like Hitler, Saddam, Osama? Dont they deserve death?

Also capital execution might scare off people so murderes will think twice before killing people.

Here people can think like this: "i kill someone, get a good lawyer, act like i am crazy and had a bad youth and be released in a few years."

I think that the prison system should focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment. Also, I think that a person's right to appeal the court's decision should never be taken from him. A murderer should certainly be incarcerated for more than 28 years, but teaching morality through fear of punishment strikes me as absurd and ineffective.

What kind of punishment should a murderer get in your opinion?

[Caid Ivik]

If it should be a legal court, than no. There is no need to kill someone just because he is unfitting. For example see Saddam Hussain. If he would be killed in battle, than ok, it was a fight. Morally it is still unacceptable, but we talk about legislative, right? Now when he is caught, however, he is under permanent view, so he doesn't mean any threat now. Luxury like legal court and then imprisonment is at hand without any problem.

[danielsh]

What kind of punishment should a murderer get in your opinion?

The punishment would have to fit the crime. Life in prison seems appropriate, and depending on the seriousness of the crime committed, one might have chances at parole. The most important thing, in my mind, is that the prisoners always have the right to keep bringing appeals to the courts.

[filecore]

teaching morality through fear of punishment strikes me as absurd and ineffective.

Or, to put it another way, teaching morality through fear of punishment simply teaches those who commit crimes to be more careful about hiding the crimes/evidence.

[danielsh]

Exactly!

And in a grander philosophical sense, a person who does good either because he wants a reward or because he fears punishment if he doesn't isn't really doing good. That is, he recognizes the action as good, but does not do it for the sake of its intrinsic goodness. Similarly, a person who avoids doing bad because he fears punishment still desires to do bad.

If that made any sense at all... ;)

[alchemi2]

Dan IMO morality is generally based on a socially accepted view based on up bring and the laws of any given society.

Devaluing the LAW and the truth brings social anachy and a moral breakdown, unenforcable laws or failure to value up or uphold the law.

Justice should be seen to be done to be valued by society.

The death penalty is only of value if if is enforced and criminals belive that they will be caught.

No one sane would commit any crime if they genuinely belived they would be caught and punished.

As an old teacher of mine used to say "Locks are there to keep honest people out"

[emprworm]

Or, to put it another way, teaching morality through fear of punishment simply teaches those who commit crimes to be more careful about hiding the crimes/evidence.

if this is true then the number of MURDERS (as opposed to murderers caught) would be higher in Texas than another state that does not punish murders with execution.  (or at least the numbers should be the same, but certainly not lower)

hmmmmmm......

now why is this not true then?

[Dante]

Killing is perhaps a bit extreme. I mean after all, what if you get it wrong? Better to imprison indefinately.

This does not mean to say that prisons need be nice places. 'Dungeons' is more my kind of thing. Damp, dark, dingy, dreadful, dirty dungeons. With rats, and slimey walls.

Medieval, in other words.

[Inoculator9]

In my opinion they should just be sterile, and totally without stimuli.

[Dude_Doc]

If I would be a dictator over a country, I wouldn't permitt executions. Rather, I'd build prisons, hopefully on an island or something like that. Though, I would give the prisoner the choice if he wanted to be imprisoned his whole life, or if he would want to kill himself. Though, to make it a more like a punishment, you would get that choice once every 5 to 10 years.

Then, of course, it's all about the evidence. I mean, nobody would like to be imprisoned innocent, would they?

[emprworm]

Killing is perhaps a bit extreme.

but not evil, or morally wrong

"Medieval, in other words."

Why do you speak of "Medieval" as if it was a bad thing?  Maybe thats how prisoners should be treated?  But most prisons in the US anyway, have clean facilities, some even with cable television.

logically, the death penalty makes since from an amoral point of view:

if you take the life of someone, your right to live is forfeit.  its a logcal solution, really.

[danielsh]

Dan IMO morality is generally based on a socially accepted view based on up bring and the laws of any given society.

Devaluing the LAW and the truth brings social anachy and a moral breakdown, unenforcable laws or failure to value up or uphold the law.

Justice should be seen to be done to be valued by society.

The death penalty is only of value if if is enforced and criminals belive that they will be caught.

No one sane would commit any crime if they genuinely belived they would be caught and punished.

As an old teacher of mine used to say "Locks are there to keep honest people out"

I may be misinterpreting you, but by that logic, crime should have disappeared by now. Crime is born of more serious problems that seem to be ignored by too many of those in power. Class friction, for example, is a major contributor to the development of criminals. A lack of education factors in as well. There are more problems to be addressed than can be solved by killing criminals. You don't make good people by threatening punishment. You may make obedient people, but that's only temporary.

[Edric O]

Capital punishment is a horrible form of barbarity which should never exist in a civilized country.

Why? Because regardless of any other issues, the fact is that you can never be 100% certain of a man's guilt.

What if you kill an innocent man?

[alchemi2]

Ah the old but i had a broken home and no chance of an education arguement or is it the he's rich therefore deserves to be robbed whereas i'm poor so it's ok for me too do the robbing arguement.

Social responsibility needs to be taught and enforced. failure to do so leads to crime by making uneforceable laws we devalue the LAW, by failing to act we devalue the LAW and by failing to deliver justice we create a society that can perform any act without fear of retribution.

Punisment should fit the crime.

Whats the difference.

Man drives at 50 miles an hour in a built up area (legal limit 30mph) and runs over 5 year old kid.

Man get drunk 5 times over legal limit runs over 5 year old kid.

Man goes out with gun and shoots 5 year old kid.

Result dead 5 year old kid. Punishment?

1yr -5 yr in prison probably serve half of sentence

1- 5yr in prison probably serve half and lose DVL

5-20yr in prison probably serve 2 thirds

Is that justice, is it a deterent, does it sent a clear message to stop other offending? you tell me!

Is prison even a punishment? No bills to pay, 3 meals a day, no responsibilities. Doe's it reform character? Majority reoffend and return to prison.

[alchemi2]

Capital punishment is a horrible form of barbarity which should never exist in a civilized country.

Why? Because regardless of any other issues, the fact is that you can never be 100% certain of a man's guilt.

What if you kill an innocent man?

What if he admits his guilt and shows no remorse for his crime and admits he not only would do it again but will do it again if opportunity presents it's self. Most child abuser admit they will reoffend as do most sociopaths.

[Edric O]

What if he admits his guilt and shows no remorse for his crime and admits he not only would do it again but will do it again if opportunity presents it's self. Most child abuser admit they will reoffend as do most sociopaths.

Sure, you could introduce the capital punishment for whoever confesses to murder - but then no one would be stupid enough to confess, would they?

Ah the old but i had a broken home and no chance of an education arguement

That can actually be a valid argument. A person really CAN have a broken home and no chances for a good education. It's not an excuse for murder, of course, but it IS an excuse for a lesser crime like stealing a loaf of bread so he doesn't starve to death.

or is it the he's rich therefore deserves to be robbed whereas i'm poor so it's ok for me too do the robbing arguement.

In capitalism, the rich get rich through other people's labour. So robbing them essentially means stealing from thieves. But let's not get into that. We were talking about murder, not theft.

[filecore]

now why is this not true then?

[Leandros]

If you really want to punish someone, taking away their lives wil have no punishing effect on them. If you just kill them, they won't have the time to tegret their actions or even feel punished, because they're dead. But if you punish someone in a non-lethal way, they will have the rest of their lives to think about how they threw away their lives.

That's just how I think about it...

[filecore]

If you really want to punish someone, taking away their lives wil have no punishing effect on them. If you just kill them, they won't have the time to tegret their actions or even feel punished, because they're dead. But if you punish someone in a non-lethal way, they will have the rest of their lives to think about how they threw away their lives.

Yup, I like to think I agree with that, but then there are some who don't learn from their mistakes and just sit and be bitter about getting caught, and wait until they can get back out into the cruel, cruel world...

[Leto le Juste]

Life is a gift. You can't - and musn't - kill somebody even if it is a criminal. Killing somebody for Justice is not justice, it is revenge. Justice is not revenge.

[danielsh]

I disagree.