What if...

[Dude_Doc]

Let's assume that Jesus was crusified, and reincarnated. How would our world look like if he was not reincarnated? Would people stop believeing in Christianity?

[Caid Ivik]

He wasn't reincarnated. It was him with full humanity. Plus his divine power to supress death. Jesus as himself wasn't a God incarnated into a body, material and soul, both were formed as His manifestations. Such Messiah is to be on Earth at least once, if we believe the Old Testament. Wether it was Jesus, however, we can only believe. There is no way to turn back time and find out. If there would be some, and we'll find out your doubts are true, we would have to return to judaism  ;D

[Leto le Juste]

It would be a shock for all people but the message of the Bible (The Lord loves you and you love The Lord) would stay and it is the most important.

[Dude_Doc]

Yes, but what if all of Christianity is based on the rincarnation of Jesus? What if he was crucified and did not return? Would people give up their belief?

[TMA_1]

Well many christians like me believe that he gained victory over death by being resurrected. If he didnt gain victory over death, he would be in hell because he took all the sins for humanity, without him living again we would all go to hell. THe resurrection was just as important to many christians as the crucifiction.

[Filo]

It's well known at our times that faith can be a blind need and moreover that the light is more important than the finger which shows it (the message is more important than the man who delivers it).

So... even, imagine that humanity discovers irrefutable (scientific?) evidences, proof that all christianism would be based on false writings, false witness. A great deceit, the greatest cheating of History...

So as Dude_Doc asks: Would believers stop believing?

I don't think so.

I wrote a theo-fiction novel about this exact matter, called La Juste Parole (the right saying), but it's in french, not translated.

If someone is interessed, ask me, I can provide by web.

[SurlyPIG]

Jesus is reincarnated all the time.  I frequently see Jesus lying on benches downtown, and there are lots of Jesuses in mental hospitals around the world.

If Jesus were to return to Earth, he probably be put in a mental home and given a lot of drugs.  Nobody would believe him, ironically not even his 'faithful' followers.

[thomas]

Let's assume that Jesus was crusified, and reincarnated. How would our world look like if he was not reincarnated? Would people stop believeing in Christianity?

#1 he wasn't reincarnated that's a differant religion buddy, he was ressurected

#2 he was crucified and did exist there are Roman records to prove it.

#3 again he wasn't reincarnated

#4 reincarnation is the hindu/buddhist beleif that after death you'll be reincarnated er reborn into a differant body. You can become a human again or even an animal it all depends on your former life.

[Navaros]

original poster is using the wrong word.  what he means is:  resurrection

the answer to his question is in the Bible itself.  Paul has said that if Jesus was not raised from the dead - then the Christian faith is absolutely meaningless and without worth.

[Dude_Doc]

original poster is using the wrong word.  what he means is:  resurrection

Yes, that is the word I meant.

[Egeides]

I'm studying in history and we learn that the "what if" type of history is not very good. I'll explain briefly by using Dune: out knowledge of elements of the data and what can be from this data is limited (as "mentats"-type analysers) and thus the margin of error is pretty high. This is exacty Paul's situation, with all these nexus into the future, except that we do not have as much insight about the future possibilities from the present data as Paul had. We only see possible nexus in a pretty blurry way. So my answer to your question is tainted by all this.

I believe that without the Resurrection:

1- less people would have followed Jesus thereafter

2- people would have been less convinced

3- the message would have been slightly different

4- the whole thing would have been darker since Light wouldn't have won over darkness, which is a MAJOR aspect changing everything in 1, 2 and 3

[GUNWOUNDS]

original poster is using the wrong word.

[Caid Ivik]

I wouldn't say that hebrew codex is bad. Christianity is based upon it. But it is sure that if Jesus wouldn't be God himself and he wouldn't resurrect, it would be impossible for this religion to spread like christianity did.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I wouldn't say that hebrew codex is bad. Christianity is based upon it. But it is sure that if Jesus wouldn't be God himself and he wouldn't resurrect, it would be impossible for this religion to spread like christianity did.

i didnt say hebrew codex

[Filo]

Jew's religion or Christian's religion remain religions, that is to say old organisation of believings, by books, hierarchy, pseudo-answers to the answerless questions, rituals, certitude to hold the only truth, and (for monotheism) : fear.

The most respectable faith is your own, depending on your free-will, and not what you are conditionned in.

I'm not atheist, but I mistrust old writings and I don't believe in resurrection.

//"#2 he was crucified and did exist there are Roman records to prove it"(Scytale)

Except for christian records, there's not even one historical record (roman nor else) proving He existed. Tite-Live (Titius-Livius) himself speaks about Simon the Magician but nothing about Jesus. Yet I believe He existed.//

//"Also since i have not sacrificed any animals for any of my sins throughout my life I would be in a big deficit if i were to be bound by Old Testament Law."(Gunwounds)

Catholicism prohibits and binds many acts as well, don't you think you would be in a big deficit if you'd respect its true laws?

[Caid Ivik]

These cleansings were mostly for their Temple. As they have no Temple now, they have only one practized ritual cleansing. And half of population doesn't have to do it. Also due to lack of Temple they do no animal sacrifices. We christians derived from all those jewish laws only two sentences, to love our neighbors and God. From these, however, come up all the else.

Filo, Tacitus has mentioned his followers, whose numbers were rising not very long time after his execution. Also Flavius mentioned him somewhere.

[thomas]

//"#2 he was crucified and did exist there are Roman records to prove it"(Scytale)

Except for christian records, there's not even one historical record (roman nor else) proving He existed. Tite-Live (Titius-Livius) himself speaks about Simon the Magician but nothing about Jesus. Yet I believe He existed.//

Thallus, a Greek writer from around 50 AD talks of the Crucifixion, and even mentions the darkness and earthquakes which followed it.

Josephus, a Jewish historian who lived in Rome around 93 A.D., mentioned not only Jesus's death but the work of John the Baptist and Jesus's brother, James.

Tacitus, a Roman historian in 115 A.D., speaks of the Crucifixion of Jesus, as does the author of a fifth century document named the Toledoth Jeshu.

you were saying?

[GUNWOUNDS]

//Catholicism prohibits and binds many acts as well, don't you think you would be in a big deficit if you'd respect its true laws?

no actually your wrong .. catholics have it the easiest...

they believe that reciting ritualistic repetitive prayers using prayer beads cleanses them of sin (preist decides the amount of repititions).... and it doesnt seem you dont have to put your heart into it.. just the numerical times of chanting it is enuf.

also they believe that you dont go to hell if your saved but you go to purgatory.. so that you burn for awhile ... get cleansed... and then you get to go to heaven....escaping hell...(only catholics believe this)

actually catholics might *appear* to be strict .. BUT actually in the salvation aspect and heaven aspect.. they are very SLACK!! (purgatory).....

so no..... catholicism

[GUNWOUNDS]

Thallus, a Greek writer from around 50 AD talks of the Crucifixion, and even mentions the darkness and earthquakes which followed it.

Josephus, a Jewish historian who lived in Rome around 93 A.D., mentioned not only Jesus's death but the work of John the Baptist and Jesus's brother, James.

Tacitus, a Roman historian in 115 A.D., speaks of the Crucifixion of Jesus, as does the author of a fifth century document named the Toledoth Jeshu.

you were saying?

bravo bravo .. i like to see people doing their homework.. good job.

[thomas]

thank you. :)

[Filo]

I was talking about historical proofs.

Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a member of a priestly family and who became a Pharisee at the age of 19, became the court historian for Emperor Vespasian. In the Antiquities, he wrote about many persons and events of first century Palestine. In chapter three of book XVIII Flavius wrote he heard about a man called Jesus as "a doer of wonderful works". The other men who mentioned Him in almost the same terms were : Suetonius, Pliny, Tacitus, Thallus, Mara Bar-Serapion, Lucian, Phlegon, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus, Origen, and Cyprian.

Most of these names were church fathers writing in the second to fourth centuries and were therefore too late to be considered reliable first-century confirmation. Being church leaders, their objectivity is questionable. Some were not, only some roman citizens never been in Palestine, as f.i. Pliny (Plinius Secundus) or Tacitus who were great latin historians, and they didn't get more material than "hearing about..." or "man says..." (Christians say), and not before 50 years at least after events, a half-century.

But

I have to say I'm sorry for beeing so excessive, I guess it wasn't the place for this dispute. I told you, I do believe in Christ's existence.

I joined you on this forum because I'm a very fan of FH and Dune, but theology and history are such a hobby for me, although I'm agnostic.

So, no offence!

[Caid Ivik]

His existence is not to be questioned. As I won't investigate whether I talk here with chat bots or humans. Important is his legacy.

[Acriku]

His existence is not to be questioned.

Why not? Is this the core of your religion - do not question?

[Caid Ivik]

It's irrelevant. There was one Jesus of Nazareth in those times who hit the history. We can say there was no castle built in Bratislava, but it simply stays there, so we can say it was built. Of course, we can start with things like that our empirical experience means nothing and such, but then I think whole this forum has no sense. It was his teaching, what forms the core of our religion.

[Acriku]

It's very difficult to provide evidence for Jesus as a man, but impossible even as a god.