Ladies and gentlemen, we've got him!

[Atomic Mitten]

So does that make it right then ?

[Wolf]

Hmm, from what I see here, I think that Scout contends that hate in a discriminate manner is evil, but hate in an indiscriminate manner is not. To him, this is what constitutes morals. Whether this is right or wrong has yet to be determined, and though originally I made an attempt, I think I want to be left out of this.

[Timenn]

I hate people indiscriminantly and because they deserve no better.

So little children deserve no better as well then being hated?

Why do you hate little children? The only reason I can think of why people should hate children is because they missed something in their childhood. And maybe they are jealous, or they hate their own childhood and therefore hate all children because they can see no furter, and have difficulties in seperating their own experiences with what happens normally, something that little children learn (but if you have missed it as I said...)

[Warskum]

Dust are u happy about the way the world is now(killing, stealing, etc etc)?

( i ll post something after u give an answer to this qeustion)

[EWS]

When you stop sounding like them !

Your Philosophy teacher has alot to answer for. ;)

Just thought I would let you know that our Philosophy teacher actually receives the highest marks in the whole country.  She is also part of the commitee that sets the exam.  Further, she also writes a colomn in a national newspaper's education supplementary.  I think she answers for herself well enough.

[nampigai]

...I don't know why I bother sometimes. You are doing absolutely nothing constructive to further your points or refute mine. Your debate is pathetic, your arguments paltry, your evidence nonexistant. How can you expect to be proven right without even arguing properly?

Until you start working on this there's no reason for me to reply again.

and what about yours then?

your arguments have been nothing but: "I wont help others because they wont help me"

well could that be because you are in no need of help like children with no parents or burmesian (or myanmesian don't know the correct term) slave workers etc. etc.?

You know what DustScout come back to me when you have been through the shit, some of the brazilian slum children have been through, and then tell me that you don't need help! You spoiled and selfish little prick.

[Dante]

and what about yours then?

your arguments have been nothing but: "I wont help others because they wont help me"

well could that be because you are in no need of help like children with no parents or burmesian (or myanmesian don't know the correct term) slave workers etc. etc.?

You know what DustScout come back to me when you have been through the shit, some of the brazilian slum children have been through, and then tell me that you don't need help! You spoiled and selfish little prick.

*Sighs* I knew someone would say something like that eventually. Mind your language.

My arguments are not entirely "I won't others because they won't help me," although that is certainly part of it. There is also the fact that as all humans (with a few excpetions, don't bite my head off) are selfish. I know that if slave workers or slum children were in my position they would do nothing to help me, or very little at least. My point was that Atomic Mitten compares me to Hitler and provides no evidence for it. No quotes, no comparison, nothing.

And I didn't say that those people don't need help (quote me if I did). I know that the vast majority of people in this world are worse off than I am. It's a tragic situation. I also know that there is no other way this can be. As a species we are naturally inclined to attempt to use others to our own ends. Survival of the fittest and all that. The people you mentioned just happened to be the unlucky ones. I'm not saying it's their fault, it certainly isn't. And I'm not saying that it's fair. It isn't. But it's reality. Live with it.

There's a difference between me and Hitler. He thought it was morally right, and that it was people's fault. I acknowledge that it's morally wrong, and that it's not people's fault. But it's reality.

Let me just make this perfectly clear. I'm not saying that this is a good situation. I'm not saying that I'm morally correct. I'm saying that this is reality.

So little children deserve no better as well then being hated?

Why do you hate little children? The only reason I can think of why people should hate children is because they missed something in their childhood. And maybe they are jealous, or they hate their own childhood and therefore hate all children because they can see no furter, and have difficulties in seperating their own experiences with what happens normally, something that little children learn (but if you have missed it as I said...)

I dislike children because children dislike me. They're adorable until about the age of ten and then they become evil, insulting, foul-mouthed monstrosities. They dislike me, so I dislike them back. Balance. That and the fact that people older than me always tell me what to do so I tell people younger than me what to do... A kind of revenge in a way. Maybe.

Dust are u happy about the way the world is now(killing, stealing, etc etc)?

( i ll post something after u give an answer to this qeustion)

No, not really. I just accept it as reality because I know no way to change it. You cannot change the world around you, only change yourself to adapt. I am adapting to a disliked truth.

[nampigai]

well if all people share you selfish and arrogant attitude you are absolutely correct that it won't change. I try to do what I can to help others I'm no saint NO, but I try to show a little compassion towards others and help if I can.

I woulnd't say that the world we live in is the survival of the fittest, it's a place where some people are born with a freaking silverspoon up the white hairy arse while others are less fortunate.

[Dante]

Correct. Which was brought about by some communities being unfair and cruel to others years ago. The less fit, whether it was their fault or not, lost in favour of the more fit. Thus bringing about 'silver spoons.'

And there is nothing you can do to change that.

[nampigai]

I'm running my against a wall...

[Dante]

What exactly are you trying to do?

[Wolf]

There are two types of survival in this world, survival of the fittest, and exploitation of the fittest.

To be FIT and to survive is to have great intellect, great compassion, great strength, great leadership, or another quality that is great that allows you to rise above those around you NOT through the exploitation of others, but through the accomplishments of your own deeds. To be fit and to survive is to MAKE something new, or to make a discovery, or to lead people in the achievement in a common goal. To be great is to achieve something that is considered great by society while NOT hurting society at the same time. In this instance, there is survival, through your own effort and your own greatness.

On the other hand, there is a faster, simpler way to achieve not only survival, but a kind of greatness. By exploiting those around you who have achieved things, or by simply turning the efforts of others to your own ends, you can achieve a certain kind of greatness. Not through your own effort, but through your own cunning and your own disregard for the lives of those you have exploited. Sadly, this seems to be the more common method of "survival" in the modern world, as a great many people are simply too lazy or too undisciplined to achieve greatness by themselves for themselves or for others. An example of survival through exploitation can be seen, as Dust Scout said, in a good many children. Often, children are spoiled, but this is not the end of it. Children, high schoolers in general, can be extremely cruel. Look at all the lables, nerd, goth, jock, freak... children create their own caste-based societies! Do we not, as civilized people, look upon a caste system as unfair? We do, and this shows an inherent willingness to exploit from each-other, since higher castes always take something from lower castes, money, labor, or loyalty, it does not matter.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I'm going to get some more medicine before I cough up a lung.

[Dante]

Nonetheless, you're absolutely correct.

[Warskum]

*Sighs* I knew someone would say something like that eventually. Mind your language.

My arguments are not entirely "I won't others because they won't help me," although that is certainly part of it. There is also the fact that as all humans (with a few excpetions, don't bite my head off) are selfish. I know that if slave workers or slum children were in my position they would do nothing to help me, or very little at least. My point was that Atomic Mitten compares me to Hitler and provides no evidence for it. No quotes, no comparison, nothing.

And I didn't say that those people don't need help (quote me if I did). I know that the vast majority of people in this world are worse off than I am. It's a tragic situation. I also know that there is no other way this can be. As a species we are naturally inclined to attempt to use others to our own ends. Survival of the fittest and all that. The people you mentioned just happened to be the unlucky ones. I'm not saying it's their fault, it certainly isn't. And I'm not saying that it's fair. It isn't. But it's reality. Live with it.

There's a difference between me and Hitler. He thought it was morally right, and that it was people's fault. I acknowledge that it's morally wrong, and that it's not people's fault. But it's reality.

Let me just make this perfectly clear. I'm not saying that this is a good situation. I'm not saying that I'm morally correct. I'm saying that this is reality.I dislike children because children dislike me. They're adorable until about the age of ten and then they become evil, insulting, foul-mouthed monstrosities. They dislike me, so I dislike them back. Balance. That and the fact that people older than me always tell me what to do so I tell people younger than me what to do... A kind of revenge in a way. Maybe.No, not really. I just accept it as reality because I know no way to change it. You cannot change the world around you, only change yourself to adapt. I am adapting to a disliked truth.

Well u could try to change,  if every1 who thinks and lives like u would try to change, try to show some compassion to other ppl the world would be a MUCH better place, the world is a mess becuz of ppl like u, who wont do something unless they get something in return, now thats one of the things that makes this world suck. If u dont like the way it is why dont u try to change it, u can start by changing the way u think and if every1 would do that then the world would be better, i am not saying the world would be perfect cuz there will always be ppl like u who will mess it up for others, now i am not saying the rest of us doesnt do bad stuff, we all do, but atleast we TRY NOT TO DO, while it seems like u dont care if whatever u do or say is good or bad as long as there is something in it for u it is good for u. Wenn u do something think about it and ask urself would u like it if an other person would do the same to you? Dont do or say stuff to ppl that u wouldnt like other ppl to do and say to you.

about children hating you, well children are great u have to deserve there respect and with the way u think u will never get their respect, i also think that u forgot that u were a child 2 once,  just imagine how live would be if ur parents would have thought like u(maybe they have and thats why u are how u are).

I wish u a Happy New Year and may the New Year make u change into a good person.

[Sneakgab]

Dustscout, I can actually see where you're coming from. You're handling the generally not very well thought out responses from many with patience.

I will try and provide you with a good argument.... the entertainment it provides will benefit you and thus you have reason to partake:D j/k

I actually had already made an argument mainly about you're political attitude not exactly going hand in hand with you're philosophy but it was deleted

(NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

However, due to extreme lazyness, phone/internet complications in my country, and various other things, it may take a week to respond or in the worst situation I may lose my will to to type out a response before I respond  :'( :-[

Before I respond though, I must ask wether you are evil or not? This is not a loaded suggestion and does not suggest anything at all, nor is it a question that wants a certain awnser... I am only asking because it will making debating more logical and easier to do.

[EWS]

Believe it or not, most of what Mr Scout says makes sense.  Some of it may also be truth.  What I find hard to take though is that no one seems to want to take him view of the world, he certainly accepts the views of everyone else, he just has his own views which he wants to be accepted by.  From working with him, I know that he isn't an "evil" person, because we cannot have "evil" in the world.

Further, his point about balance was well directed.  He hates children because they hate him.  I'm going to take "The Matrix" as a comparison here, because in that world they had balance, they had to have people who did wrong to counteract people who did good.  If there was not people like Mr Scout, then the balance would be lost and a "wrong" act would occur.  If nobody hated children (even for a moment or so) then they would become spoil brats and not learn respect.

From being in a high position of leadership, I can tell you that there two types of respect.  There is the respect that comes from the position (in this case Elderty) and respect from the person.  Children do not have respect for the position at the age Mr Scout said (remember he said that before the age of 10, he thinks they are cute).  Maybe the problem does not lie with ol' Dusty, but it lies with the child.  Maybe what we should be working on is trying to provide a better life for the child by teaching it more.

Another problem that I can see is that Scout has never met anybody from a third world country.  He has never met anybody who lives in a shack (or under nothing) and finds it a challenge to provide a scrap of food for a meal.  If he had maybe expierenced this firsthand, met the children, he might change his mind as a generalality.

As for me, I find that some children are annoying little brats and it is down to the parents.  Because of who I am as a person and what I have done, I have met alot of parents and there children.  These parents who do not respect me as they see me as being "arrogant and cocky" because I seem to be more mature, more intellectual and take time to read books and watch the news and read broadsheets.  I then meet there kids (unfortunatly come into daily contact with them) and the child is nearly identical to the parent in the way it acts.  So what do I try to do?  I do nothing.  I do nothing because I am not allowed to.  It is not my job to try and change a child, it is the parents.  All I can do is refer the child to a person more senior then me and pretty much 100% of the time nothing at all happens.  Then comes the father (or the mother in many cases) screaming expletives at me when they see me in the street, meet me in Tesco, or catch me at work because I did not "respect their child."

I'm sorry folks, but I did respect that child, I respected that child so much I tried to make them a better person.

However, there is a sunny side to this.  Most children grow out of it when they realise that they have to fend for themselves.  Mostly when they decide to leave school at age 16.  They then realise that they wont get anywhere unless they respect people in a higher standing then them (mostly folk who have had an education).

So Mr Scout, you hate kids for a reason that to you seems plausible.  I respect that.  However, you must also agree that not all children are the same ratty little brats that you claim they are.  What were you like at that age?  Did you respect your elders?  I have no doubt that you probably did, and that is fine.  However, dont change what you believe, modify it.  You must give someone a chance, being who you are you would like a chance.  I would say that you got it, from myself and many others who know you.  But remember that life is not all "hunky dory" and that we must do things that we do not like even if it is for our own selfish needs.

Happy New Year everyone

[Timenn]

OMG?!! How old are you? You sound like a very old man who is so tired that he can't handle children anymore, and gets annoyed of children very quick. And who is so arrogant that he thinks he is higher then children of should get their respect.

From the beginning of mankind, elders complained about children who had no respect for them, they were annoyed because children weren't doing things that fit in their order of life. Every person wants to organize, that is a natural habit of all people, but children are constantly pushing the limits, and making chaos in the order, because that is the way a human develops, by testing the boundaries, and finding out why they are there.

This may seem like the children want to annoy elder people constantly, but it is not. It is how nature works.

And don't forget that children do often have respect for their parents, that goes beyond even what is good. Remember that many children are abused, and those children don't want to report it because they are ashamed, and because they don't want to hurt their parents.

Another thing is that children from the age of 10 will go in puberty. And from that age on children start to "fight" their parents, even when they had good parents. You will see that with other animals as well (not with all because some animals have already left their mother (and father) when they go into puberty)

And why do become some children spoiled brats? Because adult people see that children are very good for profits. Since children will keep nagging until they have what they want, and those people who have something to offer them, make use of that, by bombarding those kids with all kinds of commercials.

This may sound off-topic, but I quote one specefic statement of Dust Scout's argument, and my intention is to make that one unstable, so Dust Scout have to review his argument.

[Warskum]

I know children can be brats(i am a 16 years old child), but how a child is depends on the parents, if the parents raise the child good then this child will have respect to his elder and to other ppl. But now imagine Dust as a Father(maybe he is, i dont know) he teaches his child not to do something if he doesnt get something in return, what kinda of child would grow out of this? I think it will be 1 of the kind of children that Dust hates. So its ppl like Dust who raise their children wrong and  those children become little brats and get hated by ppl like Dust, kinda funny actaully.

[Wolf]

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

[EWS]

How old am I?  I am a very sprightly 17 year old.  I just have very broad views about the world and I educate myself very well.  Arrogant I am not, informed I am.  You mix these two up pal.

[Tako]

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

If you rais your child in a open en responsibel way you won't need an rod. Try to teach your child the morale valeus of live in a way he(or she) can understand. By doing it yourself.

a Child will copy its parents in most ways. Try praising a child when he (or she ) does something correct rather than punishing him (or her) wen he or she does something wrong (although there are exeptions)

thout I'd mention it...

[EWS]

Thats a very good point there.  The child will more often then not follow what the parents do, that was a point I made in my big huge post!

:D

[Wolf]

Well, my post stemmed for from flippancy (I hope that's a word) than any desire to make an argument. However, I will say that when a child has done something that is wrong, whatever it is the parent has decreed to be wrong, there must be punishment -- not always a rod, it's metaphorical you know. The person who accuses me of wanting capital punishment obviously misunderstands my meaning.

For example, the child is to be raised following the parents' example, ja? Is this always so? A parent that is too harsh on a child may create a child that will vow NEVER to mistreat his own children. That has happened before. I would cite a very personal example, but I will not. What is reliable, however, is to be fair. Raise the child however you feel best, reward the things that he or she does that you want him or her to do, and punish those things that he or she does that you do not want him or her to do. It is that simple. Do not go to any extreme, but find a balance, a moderation. Everything in moderation, everything in the golden mean.

[Tako]

Well, my post stemmed for from flippancy (I hope that's a word) than any desire to make an argument. However, I will say that when a child has done something that is wrong, whatever it is the parent has decreed to be wrong, there must be punishment -- not always a rod, it's metaphorical you know. The person who accuses me of wanting capital punishment obviously misunderstands my meaning.

No, I did understand you, 'just wanted to elaborate (?) my own idee about this idee about punishment.

but I agrea with you on this one

[EWS]

Just like to take this topic in a radical direction, and complelty off the topic at the moment (but sort of to do with the original topic)

Should Saddam be killed?  Of course not, if he were to be then he would become a Martyr, and that would probably be the worst thing that could happen to us!