A few questions about heaven

[Dante]

Ok, here's the thing. I was up late a few nights ago thinking about... well actually I can't remember exactly what I was thinking about. But somehow or other I started thinking about heaven. And I started thinking, and this is best illustrated by an example.

Say we have a sadist, as an example. This person realises that they have sadistic tendancies (i.e. like to cause other people pain) and quickly goes to a psychologist to control them. Not remove, since it's impossible to do that without brainwashing, but control.

This person then successfully lives the rest of their life controlling themself, and never lashes out or gives in. They basically deny themselves. They live an otherwise perfect and moral life (for the sake of argument).

Question 1: Since this person tried so hard to do good, do they go to heaven?

This person spent a lifetime denying themself. Would eternity doing them same thing really be a reward? Question 2: What would heaven be like? Would they be singing praises etc, which they did in life to help deny the sadism? Or would they finally be allowed to do what they always wanted?

Question 3: If this person is not allowed into heaven, but must enter Hell, how is this justice? They tried so hard.

Question 4: If they are allowed into heaven, but cannot do what they always wished to, how is this justice?

I've been thinking about this for a while, but I just realised there're people I can ask. :)

I don't actually think this applies to me, I'm not a believer. But I'm curious.

[Dude_Doc]

Well, I believe that if you have lived your whole life being good to other people, or at least tried to do good, then I believe one will go to heaven. I mean, Michael Jackson is sick, but I believe he will go to heaven (I don't believe in that he had sex with children and such).

Question 3: I don't know about the Hell question. Can somebody really be so bad that they deserve eternity in hell? On the other hand, we are free and can do what we want to do. But I don't think that your mind is dangerous, if you can control it. Surely, we have all thought of something like killing, stealing or anything else of those things. But of course, there are those who can't control themselves... I don't know about them.

[Inoculator9]

I believe, and I think some Christians might agree, that human souls are shaped by circumstance. Life is, essentially, baptism by fire. In the Judeo-Christia religion, if the fire consumes you, you go to hell, if not, you go to heaven. So, for the sake of answering your questions, let us say that... he proved his worth as a person, and because he "passed through the flames" (in quotations because otherwise I'd feel stupid) he goes to heaven.

Not precisely what I believe, but I hope it might answer your question in a fashion that helps :)

[The_Sadukar]

well Dusite, that's why I follows gods who grants me an afterlife I look forward to...

[Acriku]

Depends on how the Bible describes Heaven, is it the believer's heaven, or the individual's heaven? The typical connotation of heaven is that it is where you'd be most happy and peaceful with yourself. Following that, if a sadist gets into heaven, it would probably be a place where he is at peace of mind and is achieved either of cleansing (angels driving the demons out, so-to-speak), or of consenting (having a world a sadist would love to be in, for just them). But then again, that's assuming your soul (which is the only thing that goes up or down) has the same conscience. Could be a sort-of Goa'uld thing going on.

[Dante]

well Dusite, that's why I follows gods who grants me an afterlife I look forward to...

Next time you pillage a village or win a great battle against impossible odds let me know. ;)

[Edric O]

A human psychologist may not be able to remove those sadistic tendencies, but God sure can. I believe the "sadist" would go to heaven, and once there he would find that he no longer has any sadistic tendencies.

Remember, there is no sin in heaven.

[Acriku]

But then when he goes to heaven, he isn't himself. In fact, he would be a drone. If God takes out sadism, what else that is also sinful? Thoughts of lust, thoughts of hate, yeesh we'd be a telletubby! But then again, isn't going against God a sin, which Lucifer did while in heaven?

[Inoculator9]

How do we know what we are in our purist form? Our "selves" our "egos" and our "ids" or shaped by circumstances on Earth. Who knows what we really are like.

[Acriku]

I brought that up in a later post, and I simply don't know. Perhaps our soul is our pure conscience, and our brain is our "id" of sorts.

[Inoculator9]

We'll never know until we die :)

[Acriku]

We'll either never know, or know ;)

[Inoculator9]

I think you're calling me fat again :P

[Nyarlathotep]

Question 1: Since this person tried so hard to do good, do they go to heaven?

Yes. When the time comes, every person will have the opportunity to show remorse, even if they have not behaved good.

2: What would heaven be like? Would they be singing praises etc, which they did in life to help deny the sadism? Or would they finally be allowed to do what they always wanted?

Heaven will be somthing similar to Earth, only with the good things.

Question 3: If this person is not allowed into heaven, but must enter Hell, how is this justice? They tried so hard.

Everyone get's a chance to enter Heaven, as long as they show remorse.

If they don't, it's my believe they'll relive their life.

Question 4: If they are allowed into heaven, but cannot do what they always wished to, how is this justice?

They will be able to do what they wanted to do.

[Dude_Doc]

Then there must be a reason for the person to be a sadist. I mean, the real reason why he like torturing people, what makes him happy about it etc?

[Edric O]

But then when he goes to heaven, he isn't himself. In fact, he would be a drone. If God takes out sadism, what else that is also sinful? Thoughts of lust, thoughts of hate, yeesh we'd be a telletubby! But then again, isn't going against God a sin, which Lucifer did while in heaven?

What exactly do you consider "being yourself"? A person's character can change drastically during his lifetime. In many ways, you're not the same person you were 5 years ago.

Lucifer's original sin was Pride. Going against God came only as a consequence of it. And I'm not sure if he did it in heaven or not... the definition of "heaven" is a bit fuzzy... Is the "heaven" in which the angels live the same as the "heaven" in which human souls can go after death?

[thomas]

well according to the good ol catholics at my school we go to purgatory, mini-hell for several thousands of years til we are 'clean' then we go to heaven and have pot farms that stretch forever :) well for me personally I'd like to have a 151" plasma screen tube ;D ;)

[Acriku]

But then when he goes to heaven, he isn't himself. In fact, he would be a drone. If God takes out sadism, what else that is also sinful? Thoughts of lust, thoughts of hate, yeesh we'd be a telletubby! But then again, isn't going against God a sin, which Lucifer did while in heaven?

What exactly do you consider "being yourself"? A person's character can change drastically during his lifetime. In many ways, you're not the same person you were 5 years ago.

While I'm still going through development, the man in the example was finished with it, and the final product was what I considered to be 'himself.'

Lucifer's original sin was Pride. Going against God came only as a consequence of it. And I'm not sure if he did it in heaven or not... the definition of "heaven" is a bit fuzzy... Is the "heaven" in which the angels live the same as the "heaven" in which human souls can go after death?

No idea. Since there was only one firmament, I assume there to be one heaven.

[Edric O]

While I'm still going through development, the man in the example was finished with it, and the final product was what I considered to be 'himself.'

You're never "finished" developing your personality. You keep changing for the entire duration of your life. So what's wrong with one last change right before you enter heaven?

No idea. Since there was only one firmament, I assume there to be one heaven.

Well, yeah, that's reasonable to assume... But even so, there might be different rules for humans and for angels. After all, heaven is supposed to be a reward for humans, while for angels it's a natural state.

[Acriku]

You're never "finished" developing your personality. You keep changing for the entire duration of your life. So what's wrong with one last change right before you enter heaven?

Well, it's quite a sudden, and dramatic change, that it's as if you're putting a different noncorporeal mind in the same soul. Also, do you think that everyone has the same change?

[Davidu]

I think heaven is relative to us. (If it exists).

We will find in heaven the most pleasant place we can imagine, and we can do whatever we want there. It would be like a dream. Other people will have different heavens.

EX: for a broker his heavesn will be a stock exchange (if he actually loved his work).

For a teacher the heaven will be having lots of children around and talking to them.

But what about the ones that have no whishes?

I mean what about a guy that wants to do something for humanity. What will his heaven be like?

[Acriku]

Imagine the thing you love most, being experienced every second for eternity. It's a delayed Hell.