Hell is wrong, but people deserve hell...

[TMA_1]

okay this is actually very sad, but funny as well. I was about to go to sleep and usually that is when I have some decent ideas. I realized through talking that many people will say these two tings.

I can count for exactness four who have done this. I have talked with them one time about hell and they say, "How could a loving and just God create a hell?" that is a bonified question and understandable why a person who hasent studied doctern wouldnt get why. This is where the rub comes.

I have talked with these people, four of them at the top of my head right now, who ahve said this awhile after the other conversation.

We would talk about salvation and how all can be saved, even a hitler. Then they say (and all of them say exactly the same thing!) "How could a loving and just God allow a person like hitler to go to heaven?"

hmm...

I guess hitler can go to a pacers game, that is torture enough. hehe seriously though.

THere is a real problem here. Though people dont like hell, they think that some shouldnt go to heaven? what do people want? I mean really.lol I tried this with a test and asked first to people. "Do you think hitler should go to heaven." About 4 out of the 6 people I asked said yes. I then asked if they thought hell was a bonified, and again most of them said no.

what the heck is up with this?

[Acriku]

I believe that hell, if it is indeed horrible (the NT has perhaps one or two verses describing it?), is horrible, and no one deserves it. Perhaps, when those people say some deserve hell they are not actually thinking about the eternity part. I don't care if one person raped every woman on this planet, and killed all of the men, no one deserves an eternal punishment. No way, no how.

[TMA_1]

but all are promised security. It isnt unfair, those who dont believe put it on themselves. Hell isnt for those who sin, or those who are absolutely horrible in this life. It is for those who dont accept God as master of the universe. Some have too much pride to believe, some have to little faith, others are just very unsure of why they dont believe. It all comes down to that though.

One or two verses? that coming from you means absolutely nothing, as the only info you have read up on the bible is from other people's sources. You dont care to focus on the herminutics of the bible, or the language contexts and meanings it all has.

[Acriku]

but all are promised security. It isnt unfair, those who dont believe put it on themselves. Hell isnt for those who sin, or those who are absolutely horrible in this life. It is for those who dont accept God as master of the universe. Some have too much pride to believe, some have to little faith, others are just very unsure of why they dont believe. It all comes down to that though.

That's even worse! Just because a person does not believe, for whatever reason as it doesn't seem to matter, in the god that knows itself is real, he is granted an eternal punishment? This is a major flaw in the 'loving' god concept, because not only does the real god let there be other choices to pick from in this sadistic test, but some people never even get the chance to believe! And, is it a person's fault for having values that are forcing the person, based on what he encounters and experiences, to not believe in such a god? And what about a person who sees what followers of this god act like, think like, or are portrayed as, and incorporates those observations with their beliefs? Holy cow, it is beyond words how unfair an eternal punishment is.

One or two verses? that coming from you means absolutely nothing, as the only info you have read up on the bible is from other people's sources. You dont care to focus on the herminutics of the bible, or the language contexts and meanings it all has.

Oh jesus, I try to start this out being considerate and not poking fun or jokes, and you come around and make this personal. And I'm the one with the hard heart? So now, tell me, are there more than 1 or 2 verses concerning hell? I have encountered only one verse that I can remember, and that deals with the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Correct me if I am mistaken, though.

[TMA_1]

a hard heart is when you wont listen to others. I am capable of doing so, are you?

anyways though it is true man. it wasent an attack because i havent seen you ever quote the texts of the bible from reading it yourself.

[Acriku]

And my source makes a difference...how? What if I were to lie and say I got it straight from the bible, from my daily readings of the bible? The material doesn't change, only the impression and assumptions you derive from the lie.

[TMA_1]

because I take you at your word. and if you do lie about it, all the more to not believe a word you say about your interpritations of the bible.

[Acriku]

TMA, you'd hardly be able to find out I was lying, since I would be lying the first time you asked. You simply must agree that whatever the source, the material may still be relevant, may still bring up points beneficial to the argument-at-hand, and/or may even change your mind on the argument. You're ignoring the argument by attacking the source, or the method of acquiring the information, and does not equate to a fair argument. You can start being fair by responding to this:

That's even worse! Just because a person does not believe, for whatever reason as it doesn't seem to matter, in the god that knows itself is real, he is granted an eternal punishment? This is a major flaw in the 'loving' god concept, because not only does the real god let there be other choices to pick from in this sadistic test, but some people never even get the chance to believe! And, is it a person's fault for having values that are forcing the person, based on what he encounters and experiences, to not believe in such a god? And what about a person who sees what followers of this god act like, think like, or are portrayed as, and incorporates those observations with their beliefs? Holy cow, it is beyond words how unfair an eternal punishment is.

So far, I believe I have responded to your posts as it seemed relevant, and only ask that you do the same.

[Egeides]

I think that some aren't able to go to Heaven (whattever what that is). If Heaven is love, would someone refusing to love and be loved able to see what it is and get into it? Hatred brings to hatred... and I think that an existence without love is Hell. This is the worst torture ever possible. Love brings happiness, what we cerish above all. No love brings the complete opposite.

My 2 cents :)

[ordos45]

I think that some aren't able to go to Heaven (whattever what that is). If Heaven is love, would someone refusing to love and be loved able to see what it is and get into it? Hatred brings to hatred... and I think that an existence without love is Hell. This is the worst torture ever possible. Love brings happiness, what we cerish above all. No love brings the complete opposite.

My 2 cents :)

Isn't that what a large amount of people think about Hell? A place of separation from God?

[Acriku]

Doesn't that deter from the also popularly held belief that God is omnipresent?

Also, I am having a great time without any god. I don't need to believe in a being to be happy, I'm perfectly happy with my life right now. I don't imagine a place without any god inherently bad, either.

[SurlyPIG]

It isnt unfair, those who dont believe put it on themselves. Hell isnt for those who sin, or those who are absolutely horrible in this life. It is for those who dont accept God as master of the universe. Some have too much pride to believe, some have to little faith, others are just very unsure of why they dont believe. It all comes down to that though.

To me, that is, without a doubt, the most disturbing thing about Christianity. Also one of the most illogical. The implications one can make about God based on this are staggering...

[Scrinlord]

I believe that it is more than just the act of believing. Hell, even Satan believes in God, but his is still in Hell. I think that you have to believe in God and try to follow the way that he wants you to live. BUT you will not get to heaven just by good works.

I also believe that for people who CANT believe in God for one reaso or another, like if they have not been exposed to it or something like that, then something happens OTHER than them going to hell. I am not sure what happens, but there is the little bit that I do have a thought on.

[Acriku]

I sure hope it is that way Scrinlord, however that would be more of a personal god, than a Judeo-Christian god.

[Scrinlord]

It is not neccissarily NOT a Judeo-Christian God, its just that most people dont think of all the issues and parts of the issue. God is a loving God, so I just cannot picture him condemning people to hell for no good reason. especially someone who has never had the opportunity to believe in him

[TMA_1]

God created the universe for his glory. It almost always puts it in some way or another in that context. now the word glory isnt really the right word. It is just something we slap onto God. Like when God appears in the old testament. He either uses energy or matter to do his bidding. He cant directly show himself to us as he is spirit.

The whole plan is glorification of a God that created the universe to express "Himself" (I use the masculine because in the bible it is used almost all the time. reason being it is the stronger gender in most languages, and to the hebrews, the male was the dominant figure.

God created because he could create. He wished to make mankind a mirror of himself. By doing so his glory would reflect off of his creation and back to him. It has nothing to do with ego, as God has no ego. He expresses himself to humans in a way we could understand. It is all just an example that cant be exact.

Taoism is probably my favorite religion. It explains the existance of God perfectly, and the plan he has. The Way is unseen, but the results of it's actions can be seen.

God doesnt do what he does to aid or curse mankind, that might be a secondary goal. God does what he does because he wished to glorify himself. He wishes to fulfill the purpose of his plan, and since he likes us humans, he was kind enough to give us a chance to come along with him.

[Caid Ivik]

I would say that hell (rather call it underworld) exists as it was seen by those, who survived clinical death. Dark place without nothing, just your own conscience. I would say that Jesus died just to "modify" it so it can be linked with that what we call a "heaven". How great work it was we'll see...of course I hope we'll see the better part ;D

About who deserve it and who does not I wouldn't talk. That's a choice for God.

[Scrinlord]

I dont think that Hell is just a dark place with nothing there. I think that Hell is its own distinct place, similer to heaven in the matter that it is on a more spiritual plane, but its own seprate place as well.

There are other people who have survived clinical death and come back with truly horrifying tales of what htey have seen. Not just a "nothingness" but an actual place that was terrifying to them.

[TMA_1]

I think that, like trying to understand god, it is impossible to understand hell. A perfect creation of torture for those who dont believe must be aweful, but we dont really know the exact details. Only that there will be weeping and wailing. that it will contain heat, and that there will be communication with others there. It also seems to indicate that till the lord returns, people in hades could see paradise, and that it was seperated by a huge rift.

[Edric O]

I believe that hell, if it is indeed horrible (the NT has perhaps one or two verses describing it?), is horrible, and no one deserves it. Perhaps, when those people say some deserve hell they are not actually thinking about the eternity part. I don't care if one person raped every woman on this planet, and killed all of the men, no one deserves an eternal punishment. No way, no how.

But you forget about the "eternal reward" part. If they don't go to hell, they go to heaven, which means eternal reward. So are you saying that a person who rapes all the women on the planet and kills all the men deserves eternal reward? What kind of a God would reward such a person?

[Edric O]

It isnt unfair, those who dont believe put it on themselves. Hell isnt for those who sin, or those who are absolutely horrible in this life. It is for those who dont accept God as master of the universe. Some have too much pride to believe, some have to little faith, others are just very unsure of why they dont believe. It all comes down to that though.

To me, that is, without a doubt, the most disturbing thing about Christianity. Also one of the most illogical. The implications one can make about God based on this are staggering...

Just as a side note, I'd like to mention that only certain Protestant Churches believe that salvation and damnation come through faith alone. So it is NOT a "disturbing thing about Christianity" - it is a disturbing thing about certain Christian Churches.

Unfortunetaly, since these Churches form the majority in the US and Canada, many American and Canadian atheists forget that they are in fact only a small fraction of the total number of Christians in the world.

[Caid Ivik]

If you mean bands like Mormons, Jehovists and such, don't forget that Vatican does not consider them as christians. If you think they are part of the "all-world church" we pray in byzantine credo, then muslims are christians too...

[Dante]

The Vatican only considers Catholics christians, isn't that it? Just another form, like the others.

In which case, no, the other world religions aren't christian, because protestants are christian and (as far as I know) aren't connected with the Vatican.

[Caid Ivik]

No, Vatican has four categories (disputed when christian is i.e.going to marry someone):

1. catholics (greek for "all-round"; contains roman catholics, greek catholics, arabian copts and church of Jerusalem)

2. other christians (orthodox, protestant and national churches)

3. different cults (any religion which preaches divinity of more or less holy books than two testaments of Bible; thus contains jews, muslims, pseudochristian sects as well as any other cult, i.e.eastern or pagan)

4. atheists (can contain also catholics or other christians raised without religious education)

[Tio_Holtzmann]

I am a Christian <for the record> and I think Scrinlord has raised an interesting point:

"I also believe that for people who CANT believe in God for one reaso or another, like if they have not been exposed to it or something like that, then something happens OTHER than them going to hell. I am not sure what happens, but there is the little bit that I do have a thought on."

This is a theory I have heard and talked this over with a few people, my parents etc. You might think it sentimental but anyway:

Humans are made in God's image, according to the Bible. I believe this is where humans get their good characteristics, like being able to love and forgive and be creative. Another one of God's characteristic's <again according to the Bible> is He is merciful. I think this is a human characteristic. If you are thinking "Why should God punish people who've never heard about him?" then He will be too, and it'll be worrying him a lot. I believe He'll do something, like send someone to tell people who've never heard about Him. If people die not knowing, who knows, perhaps God appears and offers them a final chance? He is a good God and He can't do anything but good.