Fed2k Showdown: Religion

[Dude_Doc]

I am directly involved, I am an atheist living in a country where religious people are allowed to discriminate against me, and where god shows up everywhere I look

It shows up because you look specifically at it. Just like the Abraham Lincoln/Kennedy thing/connection (you know, the murder, the names etc).

education may be compromised or my children's education because some religious nuts think creation should be in schools and evolution out.

Oh? It may, yes, but it don't. You got to the moon without religion 50 years ago. And because some wants it to be in the schools? Well, you live in a land of Freedom, then you are allowed to do something about it, I presume? Just think about all religious societies who are helping children in dozen of unknown countries each day.

[Acriku]

It shows up because you look specifically at it. Just like the Abraham Lincoln/Kennedy thing/connection (you know, the murder, the names etc).

Oh yeah, I won't notice "under god" being in the pledge unless I look specifically at it, I won't notice the "in god we trust" on our coins and dollar bills, please, it's noticable and is meant to be noticable. State mottos have "In god we trust". Billboards all over the interstates all over the country have god on them in big bold letters, corporations have "In god we trust. United we stand." on billboards, misrepresenting the people who don't trust in god who work there. Believe me, it isn't that hidden.

Oh? It may, yes, but it don't. You got to the moon without religion 50 years ago. And because some wants it to be in the schools? Well, you live in a land of Freedom, then you are allowed to do something about it, I presume? Just think about all religious societies who are helping children in dozen of unknown countries each day.

What? Land of the Free does not mean put any bullshit you want in the educational system because you're a religion. If religious people had their way they would take out the entire science cirriculum and put in creationism and other religious topics. Our children's education will be moot and our scientific community dies out and our world degrades into the dark ages once again. While extreme, this may very well happen in the deep south if they get their way. And so far, they are getting their own way. In Alabama, they have a disclaimer to be pasted in every biology book:

A MESSAGE FROM THE ALABAMA

STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION

[to be pasted in all biology textbooks]

This textbook discusses evolution, a controversial theory some scientists present as a scientific explanation for the origin of living things, such as plants, animals and humans.

No one was present when life first appeared on earth. Therefore, any statement about life's origins should be considered as theory, not fact.

The word "evolution" may refer to many types of change. Evolution describes changes that occur within a species. (White moths, for example, may "evolve" into gray moths.) This process is microevolution, which can be observed and described as fact. Evolution may also refer to the change of one living thing to another, such as reptiles into birds. This process, called macroevolution, has never been observed and should be considered a theory. Evolution also refers to the unproven belief that random, undirected forces produced a world of living things.

There are many unanswered questions about the origin of life which are not mentioned in your textbooks, including:

* Why did the major groups of animals suddenly appear in the fossil record (known as the Cambrian Explosion)?

* Why have no new major groups of living things appeared in the fossil record in a long time?

* Why do major groups of plants and animals have no transitional forms in the fossil record?

* How did you and all living things come to possess such a complete and complex set of "instructions" for building a living body?

Study hard and keep an open mind. Someday you may contribute to the theories of how living things appeared on earth.

Proposterous. Sickening, even. I value education to be one of the most important things a person can hgave, and right education at that.

[Navaros]

Akriku: it doesn't take a religious person to realize that Darwin was a blithering idiot who's theories are nothing more than asinine, unscientific hogwash

[Acriku]

It seems it doesn't take a religious person to be completely ignorant of science.

[Phage]

Akriku: it doesn't take a religious person to realize that Darwin was a blithering idiot who's theories are nothing more than asinine, unscientific hogwash

Are you trying to totally undermine your credibility? Darwin's theory is considered as solid as gravity by the scientific community.

In fact the nations leading scientific institution and magazine have gone on record to say just that:

Scientific american: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=1&catID=2

The National Academy of Sciences: http://www7.nationalacademies.org/EVOLUTION/index.html

As has the National Center for Science Education:

http://www.ncseweb.org/

As has PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/

As has every leading scientist in this nation, including 72 Nobel Prize winners:

Evolution meets all the criteria of a good science; scientific creationism fails as science. In the U. S. Supreme Court case of Edwards v. Aguillard a remarkable friend-of-court brief was submitted by 72 Nobel laureates, seventeen state academies of science, and seven other scientific organizations which exposed "scientific creationism" as a fraud. I know of no other document of belief supported by so many Nobel prizewinners!

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-misc.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/edwards-v-aguillard/amicus1.html

Now I'm sorry to say this but I don't believe the nations leading scientific journal, academy, science education center and 72 Nobel Prize winners would embrace a set of theories that:

are nothing more than asinine, unscientific hogwash

And I am liable to think they would know more about the issue then you.

[Phage]

Also people should realize there is more to democracy then majoritarian rule. There is a constuttion which is supposed to protect individual freedoms and basic values. That is why the US is not a pure democracy.

[Acriku]

Thank-you Phage for clearing that up. And the US really isn't a pure anything, really. It isn't a pure capitalism, democracy, republic, etc.

[Dante]

It's too new to really be anything yet. And too big.

Remember, times once were when people (highly thought-of people, like Nobel prizewinners of their time) saw God's word as being "as solid as gravity" because they believed it. We now trust Darwin's theory in much the same way. Just because animal skulls and skeletons are similar, does not mean that evolution exists. The textbook my be... curious. But it does have a point, if not a particularly well-phrased one. We have not yet seen evoltion in motion because we simply have not known about it for long enough; though the theory is certainly there.

(N.B. Of course evolution exists! It's one of the greatest discoveries yet made! Darwin came up with a scientific theory that is now scientific fact and for all intents and purposes irrefutable. Phage and Acriku have put forward the most convincing argument by far.

Why did I argue the other way? I like to argue. )

[Caid Ivik]

Navaros, you should accept the democratically chosen truth...

[Nyarlathotep]

This discussion will never end, most of it is a personal opinion. Don't try to change personal opions.

Looking at most replies (everywhere), we all agree that we all have individual freedom of what to believe in. We all agree that no one should be forced to do something against their will.

If someone feels the need to believe in a religion, no one should have any problem with that. On the other hand, if someone does not want to believe in a religion, don't try to convert that person. I think that last part is what people find annoying. As long as a person isn't harming anyone, let them be with their believes, no matter what it is.

And Acriku, probably not intended, but it at least seems to me that you're trying to show that any religion isn't worth believing in. Or at least try to convert others in your view. Try to be more specific with your choice of words if you want to make this never ending discussion something meaningful.

[Caid Ivik]

I would say, Nyar, that any conversion attempt is natural. People like when their opinions are accepted.

[Nyarlathotep]

Every opinion is personal and therefore shoudl always be respected. You don't have to accept someone's opinion, but you should respect it.

[JB]

Rediculous. Just because it is not a theocracy (religion government), everything it does is automatically in the name of atheism? Completely rediculous. Is America's doing in the name of atheism? I guess this Iraqi war is in the name of atheism!

The US *does* have a religion-based government, with president Bush and the war agains Iraq this has become even more apparent.

From the pledge of allegiance:

"... the United States of America

and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God,

indivisible,..."

In public appearances of the US president and other officials, it is often stated that there is one God, and that he is on the US side, and that God should bless America.

So yes, I would say that the US is a religiously led country.

On the rest of the discussion: I think that opposing so strongly against religion (as you do) makes atheism a religion or belief in itself. Btw, "atheism" litterally means having no god(s), the meaning of the word has been extended somewhat to "having no religion", but it still does not exclude spirituality IMHO. And, being a physicist, I know that science and rationality have little to do with beliefs/religion, and conflicts between those are results of fanatically applying statements from the one onto the other.

-JB

[Acriku]

Nyar I completely agree. Everyone should believe in what they want to believe. But sooner or later, probably later, people are going to have to choose denying reality or accepting facts. And one of the major points of this thread is to enlighten people of the dangers of religion, and how dangerous religious people can be. They can be dangerous in politics or some other form, but this is about religion. The most orthodox of religious people can probably run for paranoid schizophrenia it's so deep embedded in their minds. It's also to enlighten people of what religious people are doing today. But only in America, as I live in America.

To your direct address to me Nyar, I feel the fault lies mostly in the major religions such as Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam. The four pillars of evil I once heard them be called ;)

And I don't expect anybody to "deconvert" from their religion. Or anybody to convert to a religion. This is about enlightenment, raising awareness, and getting all of that hate off of me into words.

JB, welcome to the discussion - haven't seen you in here much?

The US has religion, mostly Christianity, in itself, and that's sad. I praise Newdow for getting "under God" out of the pledge, he's doing what we all want to do. But America is trying to be as secular as it can be, and when I say America I mean the Supreme Court, which recognizes that the separation of church and state exists.

How does hatred toward one thing make it a religion of it? A religion is basically a system of beliefs. So what are my beliefs for my new religion JB? If you hate a certain genre, say mystery, so much is that your new religion as well?

Atheism does not exclude spirituality, indeed. But materialistic atheism does ;D

And if the religion contradicts what science tells us, obviously one of them is wrong. You can apply science to religion to test it out, just not to test any gods as that would seem impossible.

[Nyarlathotep]

Acriku, I do understand what you're trying to say, don't get me wrong. But you can't blame a religion for what people do, which is what I think you're doing (forgive me if I'm wrong, it just seems that way).

[Hawat]

Sounds like a noble cause. The only problem is that you won't rise awareness with your approach. You said that you listened enough to the "defenders of religion", but obviously you didn't. Several people spoke out against religion as institution and against opression through christian ethics, but you're still bashing faith and generalize it as religion.

Can't you just accept that there are people who are taking the bible more serious than you and are using it as inspiration for their faith?

Even if you think of the bible as the work of some intolerant racists, for god's sake, stop attacking it all the time. If you're right with your theseis and you want to convince other people of it stop underlining the falsity of their beliefs.

No, no discussion this time, im just speaking out my mind :)

[Acriku]

If the religion's documents were all lubby-wubby and peace and faith, and people belonging to that religion were doing bad things, then I could not blame the religion. Also, it is the religion that leads people to do things such as try to erase evolution, the big bang, and thermodynamics from the science cirriculum. People believe in the religion devoutly, and thus leads them to a contradiction in reality. Is genesis correct, or is evolution correct? Obviously this is an example for Christianity.

It is also the religion that restricts people's sexuality completely. You do that for so long, the sexual pressure will build up and build up and erupt into altar boy sex. Obviously, this is an example for Catholicism.

Judaism is actually one of the humble religions, and as far as I know it doesn't discriminate actively, although I know a few rabbis who would think I'm the devil. ;)

Islam, well many sects of Islam seem to have this hatred thing going against everybody. It puts a strong emphasis on everybody being infidels and that they must die, resulting in violence with other people. In Africa and Asia many countries have violence with Islamic people and other people. Many sects are just violent. Now other sects are not as violent, but are these the correct translations? Maybe Islam was meant to be the violent religion it is now by the writers of the Qu'ran. Many sects also puts women as inferior, and makes rules for them to follow (restrictions).

Does that clear anything up Nyar?

[Nyarlathotep]

But Acriku, there are still many, many people who follow their religion they way it may have been supposed to.. peacefully (I'm no religion expert, neither did I write any of the books, hence why I use the word may).

I know many Islam believers who state that the killing out of the islam is wrong. Same goes for a few other religions. Don't tell me they have interpeted their religion wrongly (mind you, I'm not talking about any youngsters who just looked around the corner and think they know everything).

You can't generalize all those who follow a religion, just because some take it the wrong way and do harm/influence people.

Please note that I'm not discussing which religion is right or what to believe in, I just don't believe the generalization you do is the right thing.

[Acriku]

Nyar, I generalize because religion as a whole has the great potential for being a very dangerous thing. It comes with many evils, some goods, too, and those evils that come out of religion should be erased from this world. To do that, religion must go. But I can't do anything about that except minimize the evils; i.e. stop religious people from getting their way in the education of our children, among other things.

Whatever good that comes out of religions can be done in other ways, other ways that do not hold the evils. Yes there are peaceful religious people, and I'm not saying that they can't remain religious. But the evils of religion outspeak, outdo, and outweigh the peaceful and quiet. If only it were the other way around. But it isn't.

[Nyarlathotep]

But isn't it good our children learn about those things ? One way or another, either good or bad they'll get in touch with these religions. You for example could tell your children your view on things. I'm sure they'll quicker believe their father then anyone else ;)

[Acriku]

Learn about these things, or be taught them as the truth? I'd take the former anyday :)

[Hawat]

Still all of this evil comes from institutional religion. Ok i heard also about christian "radicals" (negatively radical) from the minor churches in USA. Here in germany there would be no "good" christianity whithout those minor churches.

Again i have to say that you're right in one thing. You can also accomplish much of religions "good" without it. But that's not the point of faith.

to Islam: In the name of the islam are done horrible things today. But also that doesn't justify to rip the minority of peaceful muslims off their religion.

[Acriku]

Hawat, I would never rip them off of their religion. Don't you understand that?

[Hawat]

"Religion must go". That sounds like ripping off...

Sorry if i got that wrong.

[Acriku]

That's my opinion. I'm not going to act on it, however.