affirmative action

[Scrinlord]

The US supreme court just ruled that Affirmative action is still legal in the US, I think that Affirmative action dis a bunch of crap, but what o you guys think?

[nemafakei]

This is also known as 'positive discrimination'. And it is wholly unethical. There is a similar debate hre in the UK as to ideas that universities should have a minimum number of state-school students (Meanwhile, of course the government is increasing fees paid by students).

[SurlyPIG]

First I want to say that I applaud the goal of affirmitive action. Its a commendable act to try and kill the gap of racial disparity and subculture isolationism.

But AA is just plain racial discrimination and is a great injustice. Martin Luther King fought for years to end racial segregation and discrimination, you know, the preferential treatment of white people and the mistreatment of colored people...Now its the opposite, and whenever people complain, they're labeled as bigoted, racist white supremacists.

The whole notion of AA is ridiculous! Many people in a position to benefit from AA are too proud to utilize AA. I mean, who wants a handout when you know its because of what color your skin is?

AA is effecting everything upward from high school. College and University application processes, hiring processes. Post-secondary establishments are forced to lower their grade level requirements for minorities. My mother works with a lady who attended a nursing school that required a 3.0 GPA for white students and 2.0 GPA for minority students. Now imagine being the white person with a 2.9 GPA...

And then there's the workplace quotas. Yeesh. It's so utterly Communist that they're even using Communist lingo now. Personnel directors are forced to hire based on race to meet these quotas or face government action, and all the bad press that goes along with it. If they don't meet a certain percentage of minority workers in all levels of seniority, they're ruined. They're just plained ruined. Sometimes, AA quotas are no problem. Sometimes you're lucky enough to have your business located in a culturally diverse area with ambitious people.

This goes right down to life and death situations. I've talked to people in the US military in other forums that say they're sure people could die because their commanding officers (minorities) were promoted to fast ahead of more competant people. That's not to say that they wouldn't do a good job in the future, but now they're just making the token effect.

People in medicine face the same quotas. Your doctor could be someone who's there not because he was the best coming through medical school, but because of the color of his skin. Who would you want as your doctor?

Now I understand the goal of AA and I applaud that, but they're going about it entirely wrong! The percentages and grade requirements are derived from the socio-economic status of minorities in each region. If there is more disparity, there's a larger quota.

Before about the '60s, white scientists tried to justify their racism by trying to identify genetic inferiority in black subjects. They did all sorts of crap like measure body proportions and link things like this to everything under the sun, but they left huge variables like socio-economic status, environmental factors, segregated education etc.

Now they're abusing statistics ane are using the same conclusions! They figure that the only reason minorities aren't in more prominence than they are in upper society is because of their race. Again, they're ignoring social and economic factors.

A guy I know from another forum said its his job to figure out these gaps, what causes them, and what can fix them. It was his opinion that there's a general inherited feeling of being a victim among minorities in some areas, and that statistics justify this. If minorities are so opressed, how come black African immigrants outperform white people every year? It's the same for Arabs, East Indians, and anyone you could call people of color coming from countries outside of the US. South American immigrants too. Asian students outperform the white majority brilliantly. So obviously it's not a racial problem, otherwise all these racial minority immigrants would be having the same problems as American minorities. What is it then? Social conditioning.

It starts at home. Some partents tell their kids that minorites get screwed over in a white person's world. It instills a super-defensive attitude and breaks the kid's ambitions into a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness. If this sounds racist to any of you, I assure you it isn't.

Anyway, AA is essentially bending all of society to fit minorities. It needs to be replaced with something that will help minorities fit society without removing the subcultures.

[zamboe]

Now its the opposite, and whenever people complain, they're labeled as bigoted, racist white supremacists.

huh?

That kind of believe is precisely the shield that real hardcore racist use to promote its purpouses.

Post-secondary establishments are forced to lower their grade level requirements for minorities.

You really think that way ?

I find really embarassing that you have a pre-stablished concept that minorities are by default less qualified or less prepared. But I have to recognize that that's the majority opinion in North America, embarassing indeed.

Now they're abusing statistics ane are using the same conclusions! They figure that the only reason minorities aren't in more prominence than they are in upper society is because of their race. Again, they're ignoring social and economic factors.

Well, it looks to me that you are putting all minorities again in to a default categorization, that reminds me one thing that happened in one of my vacations trips to the US, I went into JCPenney and get a nice sweater, the cashier tells me TWICE with a despective tone "This is a 49 dollar sweater........Sir ? This is a 49 dollar sweater plus taxes ..." I was like wtf?, so just because I am latino, look like latino, I just cannot read 49 and buy a 49 dollar sweater ? What makes you think I cannot afford it ?, so, I ended up buying more stuff just to shut him up. That's the kind of default pre-stablish categorization that needs to be terminated.

What not be possible to avoid is all the different kinds of default pre-stablished generalist concept for minorities that each person in the first world have, wheather they are good or bad.

[Acriku]

I would do away with it, and find a better plan to bridge the gap between poverty-stricken minorities and middle-class citizens for the right education. AA has the right intentions, but all the wrong doings.

[Scrinlord]

ummmm, zamboe, he was not being racist, he was critizizing the government for being racist. Affirmative action is where the government REQUIRES people to hire or educate minorities above white people. He is not saying it is right, but unfortunatly, it is the truth.

I do not believe that minorities should be given special attention just because of their skin color, but that is government policy.

Quote Wrom: QNQEMSFDU

Now its the opposite, and whenever people complain, they're labeled as bigoted, racist white supremacists.

huh?

That kind of believe is precisely the shield that real hardcore racist use to promote its purpouses.

actually, what he said is true. Some cable companies carry BET: Black Entertainment Television. I really have no problem with this, and nobody else complains about it either, but my problem comes from the fact that if I were to create a WET: White Entertainment Television, I would be labled as a bigot and a Racist and there is a good chance the government would try to get me to shut down if they could.

Quote from:ACElethal

Post-secondary establishments are forced to lower their grade level requirements for minorities.

You really think that way ?

I find really embarassing that you have a pre-stablished concept that minorities are by default less qualified or less prepared. But I have to recognize that that's the majority opinion in North America, embarassing indeed.

He does not think that way, it is a fact. He never said the minorities needed lower requirments, he stated that the requirments ARE lowered for minorities, not saying it is right, but that it happens.

here is my problem with affirmative action:

The federal government, has given special benifits including but not limited to: Scholarships, social services, social security, health care and many other benifits to (Takes big breath)

African people, Asian people, European people, Mexican people, Latin American people, Native American people, Inuits(Eskimos), Arab people, Neo-Nazis, Communists, Hindu people, Muslim people, Jewish people, Buddist people, Other non-major religions, such as Mormons and Jehovas(sp) Wittness, Gay people, Lesbians, illigal aliens and prison convicts.

But if I am a straight, white, Christan, male who was born in the USA, the government does not even care that I exist. Now, when you consider that 75% of the country is straight, white, and Christian, does that sound fair to you?

I am not saying that whites are better than minorities, but I am saying that Minorities should not get any special attention. I completly agree with the goal of Affirmative action: to erase prejuduce from society, but Affirmative action is not the best way to do it.

[nemafakei]

The idea is absurd because it is an attempted cure of symptoms, not of root cause. If minorities (+women), are being discriminated agains, that should be sorted out. If minorities (again, +women) are merely not fully 'represented', however, this is a fault in the minorities, so to speak, for not applying.

Interesting, however, that the no-one ever complains about the lack of women in professions such as building, plumbing, and coal-mining, despite the fact that I've neer seen a single woman in of any of these professions.

[Anathema]

Have you ever set foot in a coal mine then, or worked in a plumbing company?

AA might have been a good idea 30 years ago, but now when the position of minorities is mostly equal to that of the majority there is no good use for it. What's really troubling is that some companys would choose AA only because they want to be viewed by the public as multi cultural.

[DukeLeto]

Affirmative action is bullsh*t. Frankly, I don't think we ought to be giving special consideration to anyone because of the color of their skin. It's still discrimination, even if you're discriminating against caucasions.

[SurlyPIG]

huh?

That kind of believe is precisely the shield that real hardcore racist use to promote its purpouses.

What on Earth are you talking about? Either you really didn't understand a thing I said or you're trying to get at me.

Let me make this perfectly clear: I am *NOT* a racist. I hate racists. I hate racist people and I hate racist laws like affirmitive action. All people should be judged based on their credentials and their character, no prejudices, no preconceptions.

You really think that way ?

I find really embarassing that you have a pre-stablished concept that minorities are by default less qualified or less prepared. But I have to recognize that that's the majority opinion in North America, embarassing indeed.

NO!

I do not have that conception AT ALL. I am against that conception. That conception is insulting to minorites. I HATE that conception. Hence why I am against AA. What I said is fact. Post-secondary educational institustions are forced, by the government, to lower their grade requirements for people in racial minorities. It's going on in the US and even in Canada right now and I hate it. It's the governments perception, not mine. I think standards and expectations should be the same for all people.

And accusing the majority of North Americans of being racist is a pretty silly thing to say.

Well, it looks to me that you are putting all minorities again in to a default categorization,

You really don't get what I'm saying...

I don't have that generalization. That's the government's generalization. They want to decrease racial disparity so they enforce percentage based minority quotas in the workplace and require lower grade requirements for post-secondary schools. It's law. It's actual government law here this is not one person's conception.

that reminds me one thing that happened in one of my vacations trips to the US, I went into JCPenney and get a nice sweater, the cashier tells me TWICE with a despective tone "This is a 49 dollar sweater........Sir ? This is a 49 dollar sweater plus taxes ..." I was like wtf?, so just because I am latino, look like latino, I just cannot read 49 and buy a 49 dollar sweater ? What makes you think I cannot afford it ?, so, I ended up buying more stuff just to shut him up. That's the kind of default pre-stablish categorization that needs to be terminated.

I agree, that's not acceptable, but affirmitive action is not the answer to that kind of thing. AA is not the answer though. AA won't force that cashier not to be a racist. But I guarantee you there are options to rectify that. If you complained to the manager they would formally apologise, (complete with a complimentary gift to compensate) investigate the chashier and probably fire them. If the manager refusted to to anything about it (or was racist himself), go to the local media. They eat this stuff up. The publicity would absolutely ruin the store. I've seen it happen before.

What not be possible to avoid is all the different kinds of default pre-stablished generalist concept for minorities that each person in the first world have, wheather they are good or bad.

That, in itself, is a misconception. The majority of people in the first world are NOT racists. I absolutely guarantee you that.

A couple years ago I was in a Future Shop (large computers & electronics store) with three of my friends buying some music and one of the clerks was following us around. My friends looked annoyed already but I was patient at first. I politely told the guy that we were just browsing through the selection and didn't need help finding anything in particular. Well we kept looking for about 5 minutes and the guy didn't leave. It was late in the day but there were other customers and it became apparent that the guy was watching to see if we swiped something. I wasn't as quick to catch on to this but when I did I decided to to a little test. I went up to the guy and while walking past him said "Excuse me, can you tell me a little bit about this stereo system?" purposely pointing to one that was behind him. Well instead of turning around the guy backs up to a spot where he could face me but still see my friends. He slowly blurted out some stuff..."uhh that particular model is..uhh...a 200 watt platform with 8 inch detachable speakers" (which wasn't even right) while keeping his eyes fixated on my friends for 90% of the time. "You seem awfully interested in what my friends are looking at, why is that?" I asked the guy. He said he wasn't, I just said yeah right, memorized the dude's name, went to the front desk, picked up the manager's business card and called him the next day with the three friends. The guy is white. Two of my friends are Indian and the other one is Cambodian. The manager said it was the third complaint he had recieved about the guy, promised to fire him (which he did as far as I know since I never saw him there again), and apologised on behalf of his business.

[Navaros]

I went into JCPenney and get a nice sweater, the cashier tells me TWICE with a despective tone "This is a 49 dollar sweater........Sir ? This is a 49 dollar sweater plus taxes ..." I was like wtf?, so just because I am latino, look like latino, I just cannot read 49 and buy a 49 dollar sweater ?

it's pathetic when guys like you "play the Race Card" to try to make the rest of us feel sorry for you for no good reason. he probably didn't think anything based on your race. most likely, you just happened to look like a bum, and the store was used to having panhandlers walk around and harrass the customers, so the cashier figured you were one of those bums and possibly drunk/crazy/unable to read based on *that*. race is irrelevant. i bet he would have done that if you were a white guy. bums and people who look like bums come in all races.

[TMA_1]

said white trash. ;)

[SurlyPIG]

Nav, shut up. You're embarrasing yourself, our country, and white people everywhere...

It is better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you're an idiot than to open it and remove any doubt.

[TMA_1]

exactly ace. I am glad he is not a fine representitive of canada, otherwise who would want to live there? ;)

[Navaros]

i am told ACE is flaming me so i'm gonna respond to his post too:

ACE, it's also pathetic how *you* "play the race card" to make yourself feel all "high and mighty" by reaching out your hand to those who are lesser than you in your opinion because they are not white (note: this is not *my* opinion) and feeling the necessity to fabricate issues on their behalf since you feel them incapable of standing up for themselves (again, probably because you think that as a white person, you're more qualified to carry the Flag for them). based on this, I conclude that you ACE are a pseudo-racist.

how do you know that guy was watching your friends because they were not white? maybe he was watching them because they looked like YOUNG MISFITS. if i was running a classy place like Future Shop, I'd keep my eye on all the young misfits too rather than watching the local businessmen/normal clientele who actually had real money to spend in my store.

it is illegal to stop someone in Canada for suspicsion of a crime unless you're a Police. therefore, the ONLY safeguard that Future Shop employees have against losing merchandise to theft by young hoodlums is to manually watch whoever they think is likely to steal things.

btw, he knew you had no intention of buying the stereo - so why should he provide help to you about it? the fact that you asked him about it just makes you and your entire band of hoodlums even MORE suspicious --- because that is EXACTLY how real thieves would set up their heist! after that point, he'd have to be an *INCOMPETENT* employee to *NOT* stare at your friends constantly

if they accosted/harrassed your friends, that would be a different story. that is NOT the case here - he's an employee so he's entitled to WALK & LOOK wherever the Hell he feels like it for as long as he wants in his own workplace.

[TMA_1]

Lets USE flashy CAPITALIZED words in order to *GET* our point across. YEAH that is mature ENOUGH.

[Acriku]

I'm often tired of minorities automatically going to the conclusion that they are being discriminated against, as well. I can't stand many black people who seriously say, "Oh you are going to blah blah because I'm black!" Jesus christ be reasonable. Oh because AberCrombie and Fitch doesn't hire more than 10% of black people, they are discriminatory against minorities. It's business! Their clothing line is targeted towards white people, just like FUBU is targeted towards black people. Black people are able to buy from AC&F just like white people are able to buy from FUBU stores. Would FUBU stores want a pale white male to be up front advertising black clothing? No! It's business! Stop playing the race card every damn time you don't get your way.

[Andrew]

Isn't there a similiar affirmative action type thing when it comes to hiring police officers? a certain % of the force has to be a minority?(in certain areas) That is unfair to the people who worked just as hard and did better on tests.(although minorities may be able to handle situations better that involve minorities.)

Similar thing in U.S.A is happening in the spot where white cops chased an African American on motorbike who got killed in the chase which started a couple nights of riots. Obviously the African American was being chased for a reason and I can't see how cops chaseing a African American is a bad thing, the African American didnt have to run away. I beleive the African American was killed by running into something that did not involve the cops.

No I'm not racist I just dont understand things.

And I think afirmative action is wrong.(to answer original question)

[Scrinlord]

ACE, it's also pathetic how *you* "play the race card" to make yourself feel all "high and mighty" by reaching out your hand to those who are lesser than you in your opinion because they are not white (note: this is not *my* opinion) and feeling the necessity to fabricate issues on their behalf since you feel them incapable of standing up for themselves (again, probably because you think that as a white person, you're more qualified to carry the Flag for them). based on this, I conclude that you ACE are a pseudo-racist.

Nav, what the hell are you talking about?

how do you know that guy was watching your friends because they were not white? maybe he was watching them because they looked like YOUNG MISFITS. if i was running a classy place like Future Shop, I'd keep my eye on all the young misfits too rather than watching the local businessmen/normal clientele who actually had real money to spend in my store.

ACE already said that this employee had already had several complaints against him, and by the way that ACE was discribing the store, I would be willing to bet that there were a bunch of other people in there that looked just as much as misfits as they did.

btw, he knew you had no intention of buying the stereo - so why should he provide help to you about it? the fact that you asked him about it just makes you and your entire band of hoodlums even MORE suspicious --- because that is EXACTLY how real thieves would set up their heist! after that point, he'd have to be an *INCOMPETENT* employee to *NOT* stare at your friends constantly

ummm, because that is his job, maybe? So, if I go into a store, look around for a few min., then ask an employee for info on a stereo system, I am a thief? Ya, THAT makes a lot of sense....

if they accosted/harrassed your friends, that would be a different story. that is NOT the case here - he's an employee so he's entitled to WALK & LOOK wherever the Hell he feels like it for as long as he wants in his own workplace.

ACTUALLY, he is an employee who is restricted by the law and buy his boss as to what he can do. And btw, following people around and spying on the IS harrassment.

And I think that to some degree, it is OK for police stations to use AA. most people would be a lot more willing to come in with the cops if someone similar to themeselves were teh one to arrest them. I really dont know what my oppinion is on police AA, it is bad, but it makes sense, so i dont know

[zamboe]

What on Earth are you talking about? Either you really didn't understand a thing I said or you're trying to get at me.

This is what you wrote:

"Now its the opposite, and whenever people complain, they're labeled as bigoted, racist white supremacists."

I agree on that, let me re write what I really mean.

Since hardcore racists people cannot longer free promote their believes they use that kind of believe as a shield, so when they are labeled as racist, they say "the fact that I complain doesn't not make me a racist" when that's what they really are.

I hope I've been clear now.

I do not have that conception AT ALL. I am against that conception. That conception is insulting to minorites. I HATE that conception. Hence why I am against AA. What I said is fact.

Ok, I got that is fact, I checked my post and I did insinuate that you believe that, when actually you don't, sorry about that.

And accusing the majority of North Americans of being racist is a pretty silly thing to say.

Ok, I'll make 3 separate statments as there are 3 different countries in NA.

Mexico, I've been there and is one of places where I felt welcomed friendly all time. Canada, I cannot make an statmente since I have not been there long enough to make a feasible opinion. USA, well in "my" personal experience which I think is enough I can say the majority of USA citizens/residents have in different degrees racist behaviors, you may not agree, probably because you are Canadian, but in this particular matter I think that an opinion from a non-northamerican is more accurate.

I don't have that generalization. That's the government's generalization.

Sorry for have somehow mentioned the opposite, I miss understood.

I agree, that's not acceptable, but affirmitive action is not the answer to that kind of thing. AA is not the answer though. AA won't force that cashier not to be a racist. But I guarantee you there are options to rectify that. If you complained to the manager they would formally apologise, (complete with a complimentary gift to compensate) investigate the chashier and probably fire them. If the manager refusted to to anything about it (or was racist himself), go to the local media. They eat this stuff up. The publicity would absolutely ruin the store. I've seen it happen before.

I don't know if you are correct.

It has been proven in many retail areas (banking is the best case though), that minorities prefer to be helped/assisted by someone of his own group. There is empirical evidence of that. If some mexican customer wants to buy a BigMc if he sees that on the sales employees look like mexican he will (higher %) most likely make line to get assited by him, even if he has to wait more. So he might not be as high qualified as other white employees (as many people think by a default consideration) but he can provide some kind of attention that no other person can do, so at least in those cases AA is in some sort making life more just for minorities.

About the incident in JCPenney I know my rights, I could have make some real trouble maker complain, what would I get with that? Was I going to change his believes? No way, I was so pissed off I just wanted to get out of such a place as I did, since then I just don't go to JCPenney anymore.

That, in itself, is a misconception. The majority of people in the first world are NOT racists. I absolutely guarantee you that.

Ace, sorry I just don't agree on that.

[zamboe]

it's pathetic when guys like you "play the Race Card" to try to make the rest of us feel sorry for you for no good reason. he probably didn't think anything based on your race. most likely, you just happened to look like a bum, and the store was used to having panhandlers walk around and harrass the customers, so the cashier figured you were one of those bums and possibly drunk/crazy/unable to read based on *that*. race is irrelevant. i bet he would have done that if you were a white guy. bums and people who look like bums come in all races.

I am not looking that anyone feel sorry about me. No way.

However I have to recognize that, as you said, in one ocassion I was dressed in a not formal way, and therefore treated like bs in one restaurant in Dallas, since then I am very carefull to dress properly even if I don't need to.

In that particular situation at JCPenney I was dressed very formal ( I went to the store after church) and properly, therefore the only explanation is that cashier is racist.

[Scrinlord]

Ok, I'll make 3 separate statments as there are 3 different countries in NA.

Mexico, I've been there and is one of places where I felt welcomed friendly all time. Canada, I cannot make an statmente since I have not been there long enough to make a feasible opinion. USA, well in "my" personal experience which I think is enough I can say the majority of USA citizens/residents have in different degrees racist behaviors, you may not agree, probably because you are Canadian, but in this particular matter I think that an opinion from a non-northamerican is more accurate.

It really depends on what you mean by racist. Almost everyone is more comfortable around someone more similer to themselves. Is that being racist? I dont think so, but some people do. And about mexico, I cant say. In my high school, there was a group of mexican students, and they were the most bigoted and racist people in the entire school, but I have never been to mexico, so I couldnt tell u.

[Navaros]

In that particular situation at JCPenney I was dressed very formal ( I went to the store after church) and properly, therefore the only explanation is that cashier is racist.

i do not believe this statement. i think you are telling half-truths. if you looked good then the cashier would not have done that. any reasonable person would not believe this.

[Acriku]

Maybe you looked too young to have that much money for a shirt.

[Anathema]

What storekeeper would adress a kid as "sir"? ::)