Senatus Populusque Americanus

[Edric O]

S.P.Q.A.

Even though I don't really have the time to post anything remotely resembling one of those huge essay-like posts, I can still post links to other people's work. ;)

Here is a very good article about Rome-USA similarities, from one of my favourite history sites.

Note that the article was written (and meant to be read) for fun, therefore some of it (the second part of the timeline, to be exact) is just plain hillarious. :)

However, he also has serious historical facts and interesting points. For those of you who don't want to read the whole article, here's what I consider the best part - 8 easy steps to an American Empire:

The major accomplishment of Augustus was to organize the Roman government in such a way as to make monarchy palatable to such diehard republicans as the Romans. He couldn't just declare himself king. That would be political suicide. Imagine the outcry -- even among capital-R Republicans -- if George W. Bush held a coronation with a crown and purple robe in the Lincoln Memorial.

No, if President Bush wants to become virtual king, he'd have to be more American about it. First lets assume that a major war on terror had pretty much gutted the opposition. Anyone accused of abetting terrorism disappears into Guantanamo without trial. Democrats still exist in Congress, but they're in the minority, and they're afraid of speaking too loudly or else they'll be branded as unpatriotic. So how do you turn this into an Empire?

* Step 1: First ask yourself, do you really want an empire? Empires are a lot of trouble, and maybe you can get what you want without the hassle of watching your back and executing all your close family members; however, if your country has just come out of a civil war that will probably start up again as soon as you're gone, maybe empire is the way to go.

* Step 2: Remove foreign policy from Congressional oversight. All it would take is a couple of dry, technical amendments that wouldn't even arouse public debate because they wouldn't affect the voters personally. This means that the President could do anything he wants, anything at all, to the 95% or so of the world that doesn't carry American citizenship. If America has already conquered most of this 95% percent, this alone makes you master of mankind.

* Step 3: Put yourself on the Supreme Court. Think of the power a Supreme Court Justice has even without monkeying around with the constitution. First, he's appointed for life. Second, there's no appeal from a Supreme Court decision. And there's no law that says the President can't be Chief Justice at the same time. Or if there is such a law, you're on the bloody Supreme Court; you can change it.

* Step 4: As the other Supreme Court Justices retire, accept appointments as ambassadors, or meet with tragic accidents, neglect to replace them, until it's just you on the big bench.

* Step 5: Sure, the Supreme Court is a great gig, but it's essentially a passive role. If you want active executive power, you have to hold on to the presidency. Repeal the 22nd Amendment.

* Step 6: Get control of the Electoral College. Pack it with family members. Appoint your father, George HW, your brother, Jeb, your wife, Hillary, your sons John John and John Quincy. No one will care. No one ever pays attention to who the actual Electors are. Technically, Electors are chosen by the states in proportion to their Congressional representation, but I'm sure that if there are any irregularities in the Florida votes, the Supreme Court will support you.

* Step 7: Every four years, get reelected.

* Step 8: Chill. As tempting as it might be to micromanage the lives of your citizens like puppets, in practice, the less you do, the better. Let the masses keep their dignity. Let Congress debate trivial policy changes. Let Leno make fun of your bald spot. The less dangerous you are to the majority of the people, the less they'll conspire to assassinate you.

Congratulations! You've achieved absolute power and left the Constitution largely intact.

P.S. I probably won't be here to discuss it for a long time, so just start without me. :)

[Anathema]

*Ominous music begins playing*

[TMA_1]

history teaches us that the greatest enemies are those that we never pay attention to. America will slowly digress, as the world is trying to get it to do even now. I would look in other places for the true enemy. You know who that enemy is, and that he has more important matters to attend to.

[Gobalopper]

This is confusing as to why it is Bush's empire? Sure he is currently the president but the US has always had a lot of troops based throughout the world as has a number of other countries. In some places like Saudi Arabia and Germany the US is actually pulling out or drastically reducing troop numbers. I'm curious to see where he gets his information on troop placement because I see no mention of that. I would think that would be something worth citing?

[Egeides]

Gob, I think it's just metaphoric and doesn't intend to be knit to reality. The parallel is perhaps with roman history, espescially when we know that the Bush family is all in politics, one supporting the other (Jeb, W, father and perhaps others).

[Edric O]

Pretty much everyone who hasn't been living under a rock in the past 10 years knows that the USA has far more than 1000 troops in countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, South Korea, Serbia (Kosovo)... etc.

So if you're asking where he got his information from, then I suppose you don't watch the news too often, do you?

[Gobalopper]

I know that I was wondering for other countries like Iceland, Belgium, Oman, and Uzbekistan. Does the US have large bases in those countries?

[Dante]

We do, to my knowledge. Why shouldn't they?

(Besides Bush's gun-happy schedule that is...)

[exatreide]

The majority of those nations want us troops over there. South Korea ect

[Edric O]

Well, they DID use Uzbekistan as a base of operations for the war in Afghanistan... And to my knowledge, many of the troops that Bush placed there are still there today.

And Iceland is of strategic importance to American Hegemony... err, I mean NATO.

[TMA_1]

if I were you, I would blame western society and western politics. America is just one of the big boys of that group, but all of the confederated nations are to be suspect. Instead of blaming just the U.S., why dont you blame other capitalist groups that the U.S. is affiliated with, as well as the nations they are affiliated with. Look at the global entities like the EU and the UN, as well as economic powers like the WTO. They are all evil and are all to be suspect, you seem just a bit too biased. to the point that it taints the credability.

[Egeides]

Phantom:

Well, he probably talks about US simply because it is the actual worst case. Exactly as you could have talked of Persia in the time of the Romans, but it was in fact the Romans that were the biggest problem.

[SurlyPIG]

Phantom you must be new here. You'll soon learn that the US is just a scapegoat for him to blame problems upon.

And that map is irrelevant because it shows total US troop locations and tries to play it off as if they are occupying forces. The last time I went canoeing in Banff we passed a group of British soldiers that were there for training. Friendly countries allow each other's military to use their territory as allies. We have lots of air force personnel in the US picking up some of the expertise.

And that map even shows UN peacekeepers from the US and since it's coming from you, Edric, that's the mother of all self-contradictions.

[Edric O]

News flash: There is more to my post than just that damn map. So can we please get over it now?

Perhaps if you actually read the article, Ace, you would see that it does NOT try to pass those stationed troops off as anything. And neither do I. The map merely reports the facts. Now, like I said, get over the map already!

Phantom: Despite what pro-imperialists like Ace love to say about me (which is exactly what you'd expect them to say - after all, the interests of big business must be protected from people who actually care more about human beings than profits, don't they?), the fact is that I don't blame America for anything. I blame the American government, and Bush in particular, of what they love to do most: Imposing their will on the rest of the world with an iron fist, and covering it up in a sea of propaganda. In a word, imperialism.

Now, as for the others you've cited, they are all covered by the term "capitalists" (or "capitalism"). There's no point in selecting this or that element in the system as "the enemy", when in fact the whole system in the real enemy. Therefore I attack capitalism as a whole.

Edit: LOL, Ace, it seems both of us have just been horribly mislead... Take a look at Phantom's profile and you'll know what I mean. He's not quite as new as we thought. ;)

[exatreide]

that map is also wrong, Greenland is in possesion of Denmark, there for Denmark should be highlighted as well.

[Gobalopper]

Edric the problem with your argument is that Bush is not in power forever like a Roman leader would be. In 2004 Bush could be defeated and if not then there will be a new leader in 2008. So you can't just blame Bush for the global deployment of US troops.

[Navaros]

The Emperor of New Rome is USA Big Oil, not Bush

[SurlyPIG]

Perhaps if you actually read the article, Ace, you would see that it does NOT try to pass those stationed troops off as anything. And neither do I. The map merely reports the facts. Now, like I said, get over the map already!

Silly me, here I am reading history books from reputable publishers that are liable if they print false material, reading from unbiased media sites with the same liability, gaining knowledge from encyclopedias and other reliable information sources. What I fool I was not to care about Edric's beloved "Matthew White's Homepage" which could be, and maybe is, comprised of nothing more than pure crap for which neither Edric nor even Matthew is liable! What I shame it was to trust in the writings of published nobel prize winners, PhD educated historians and information networks when I could be getting everything I need to know from good ol' Matthew White (if that is his real name!). Why should I bother reading and watching the CBC, the CTV, CNN, and the BBC when I could have just asked Matthew White...

[exatreide]

Edric, Please post a map like that showing British soilders around the world, am sure you will find almost the same amount of brits as americans

[SurlyPIG]

$100 says that they don't exist. There might be one for Israel though...

[Edric O]

Silly me, here I am reading history books from reputable publishers that are liable if they print false material, reading from unbiased media sites with the same liability, gaining knowledge from encyclopedias and other reliable information sources. What I fool I was not to care about Edric's beloved "Matthew White's Homepage" which could be, and maybe is, comprised of nothing more than pure crap for which neither Edric nor even Matthew is liable! What I shame it was to trust in the writings of published nobel prize winners, PhD educated historians and information networks when I could be getting everything I need to know from good ol' Matthew White (if that is his real name!). Why should I bother reading and watching the CBC, the CTV, CNN, and the BBC when I could have just asked Matthew White...

*bangs head against wall, repeatedly*

I can't even post a fun site any more without having Ace ready to kill me for it... ::)

All I did was post a FUN HISTORY SITE, for God's sake! Is that a crime? Tell me, Ace, are your most exhalted eyes so precious that they can only look upon the work of a nobel prize winner? And is this your idea of "utter crap"?

What I find really sad is that Ace is letting his obvious hatred for me completely cloud his judgement. He acts as if every site I come in contact with is somehow tainted with an evil influence... ::)

For everyone else: I only posted this website because the guy who made it has obviously put a lot of work into making a personal history site that is both informative and fun. I'm sorry to see this poor guy turn into a target for Ace's blind rage. Please go take a look before you judge.

And you know what the funny part is? That the second they saw the words "American Empire", both of the rightists who posted in this topic immediately went into "discredit the writer" mode, without even taking a good look at the article... I rest my case.

Edit:

Ex, Denmark is highlighted (in the "use of military facilities" colour). It's just hard to see because it's so small.

[Dude_Doc]

Edric, everything you see as fun is against the USA. Have you seen us posting strategic maps of the Chinese, North Korean, Cuban etc forces on maps, and making fun of how big and bad communists are? It's obvious that this little "joke" of yours is no joke at all, just another anti-American post.

I'd bet you'd personally hire a sniper to kill me if I posted jokes about Marx...

[SurlyPIG]

No no dude doc, the KGB are more subtle ;)

All I did was post a FUN HISTORY SITE, for God's sake! Is that a crime? Tell me, Ace, are your most exhalted eyes so precious that they can only look upon the work of a nobel prize winner? And is this your idea of "utter crap"?

Fun history is an oxymoron. It's either a fun site or its a history site. That particular site was one person's opinion of the world. If you take that as history, it's no wonder you're so radical. If you take it as a fun little joke, fine! But the author sounds entirely serious to me. An opinion is an opinion whether it comes from a Nobel prize winner or this guy. What are opinions worth historically? Nothing. History is fact.

What I find really sad is that Ace is letting his obvious hatred for me completely cloud his judgement. He acts as if every site I come in contact with is somehow tainted with an evil influence... ::)

*sigh*

Why is it that every time you question what I and others say you call us manipulated and gullible, yet when I question what you think I am suddenly some sort of hate-filled monster? I'm merely putting that site in perspective. It is not history. Not the page you posted anyway. I would call it an essay but essays back up their arguments with examples. That was just opinionated rambling from one man's perception.

For everyone else: I only posted this website because the guy who made it has obviously put a lot of work into making a personal history site that is both informative and fun. I'm sorry to see this poor guy turn into a target for Ace's blind rage. Please go take a look before you judge.

You call that informative history? Good grief, you don't seriously believe everything on that comparison page, do you?

And you know what the funny part is? That the second they saw the words "American Empire", both of the rightists who posted in this topic immediately went into "discredit the writer" mode, without even taking a good look at the article... I rest my case.

I read everything up until his predictions for about a century after present, and by that time it was sickening me. The sheer number of not only fallacies in the comparisons but mistruths on the part of the roman side of the history is astounding. And unless you gained cognative abilities, how exactly do you know what I read?

You want history? Go read a book. You want satirical comedy? Go read some political cartoons. This kind of 'fact-but-fun' junk is just jaded fraud. It never ceases to amaze me just what people will believe...

[Edric O]

I officially give up. It it now obvious to me that you can't tell half-jokes from the serious and informative section, even though they are clearly marked as such.

Ace, all the "predictions" for America after the present are purely meant for entertainment... Surely you didn't take them seriously, right? PLEASE tell me you have some sense of humour left!

And finally, Dude_Doc, I'd like to point out 2 things:

1. North Korean, Chinese, and Cuban forces are all kept within those nations' sovereign borders.

2. You are PARANOID.

-----------

Now, the whole reason why I posted this topic is because that article is a half-joke which also brings up some serious interesting points. But obviously Ace and Dude_Doc don't have the reading skills required to tell apart the jokes from the information (at least not when their beloved USA is involved), so from now on let's forget that article and just stick to the quote in my first post, and also these:

Rome, AD ... Rome, DC? - THE GUARDIAN

All Roads Lead to D.C. - THE NEW YORK TIMES

There you go, Ace, now you have 2 fully serious articles from prestigious newspapers to discuss. Happy?

[Egeides]

I guess jokes going against a side are always more funny for the other side, as same as an article is always more interesting when it brings some elements that we see as "making sense". Personally, I appreciated the site because it was bringing some interesting elements: its lack of sources wasn't such a problem since I already had my own sources on the parts interesting to me (got a course on Rome, I already knew a bit about US troops...).

The link to Carthage and to the Roman "system of various colony types" was the best to me.

[hide]Edric, I'll pay half of a NERF sniper ;D[/hide]