Iraqis protest American presence

[Mahdi]

http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/2003/04/18/iraq_bgddprtst030418

[Digital Guerrilla]

This was only matter of time with Saddam's regime gone and the country in a state of chaos. With no city and governmental sectors out in force the Iraqis have no other choice because 1. the US is not going to take that responisiblity 2. if they do the Iraqis will have not approve of such actions so it time that the Iraqi people take control it is their future and the Coalition forces have done the job of removing the former Iraqi regime.

[SurlyPIG]

I think the words 'Iraqis' protest pretty much sums up the difference between Hussein's government and the coalition control. You'd never have seen that under Hussein.

Be realistic people, these things don't happen overnight.

[Digital Guerrilla]

What are you asking people to be realistic about ACE? I said nothing unrealistic and Mahdi did not say anything at all so what are you talking about?

[SurlyPIG]

Don't be so jumpy. It was not in response to any comment. The coalition will have to stay in Iraq until they can be sure they have eliminated any political groups that might take advantage of the instability.

Don't forget what happened to Russia after the tsarist rules was overthrown. Lenin and his corrupt cult of hypocrits seized control of a revolutionary opportunity and instilled their own, twisted government that was very similar to though FAR worse than the tsars, and most certainly one of the worst, most brutal governments of the 20th century.

Also keep in mind that these people don't speak for all of Iraq. And they don't necessarily want the Coalition out immediately.

This is no reason to suggest the war was illegitimate.

[Edric O]

Don't forget what happened to Russia after the tsarist rules was overthrown. Lenin and his corrupt cult of hypocrits seized control of a revolutionary opportunity and instilled their own, twisted government that was very similar to though FAR worse than the tsars, and most certainly one of the worst, most brutal governments of the 20th century.

Don't insult a man you know nothing about. Lenin was an honest, hard-working revolutionary who wanted to build a bright future for the Russian people. STALIN was the head of the corrupt cult of hypocrits who eventually took over.

[Warlord Ripskar]

The protestors are the same bunch that had firefight with the US Marines on the day that Baghdad fell. They're from the mosque that was the last known position of Saddam and are Saddam's most loyal supporters.

[SurlyPIG]

[c]I'm not surprised, Ripskar.

Don't insult a man you know nothing about. Lenin was an honest, hard-working revolutionary who wanted to build a bright future for the Russian people. STALIN was the head of the corrupt cult of hypocrits who eventually took over.

Havn't we been through this before in the Lenin thread? Don't make me post it again...It's neither the time nor the place.

[Mahdi]

The protestors are the same bunch that had firefight with the US Marines on the day that Baghdad fell. They're from the mosque that was the last known position of Saddam and are Saddam's most loyal supporters.

Post your proof.

[Edric O]

You're right, Ace, I was taking this thread off-topic. Sorry about that.

[Warlord Ripskar]

The day that Baghdad fell there was a firefight at a Mosque in which one marine was killed, do you remember that?

The firefight occured because Saddam made a public appearance at the mosque and a short time later American forces attacked, after the fall of the city we saw pictures of the mosque with a shell hole in the minaret.

During Friday prayers an American patrol passed close to the mosque, the people inside imediately came out chanting anti-US statements. More people joined this group from the surrounding area. In the report that is posted above it mentions the imam of the mosque in question.

[Egeides]

Whattever the reason why they are there, it seems there's alot of people against the US... it's not hundreds, it's thousands. And aren't they the same that put Saddam statues down? If I remember, some had anti-Saddam AND anti-US administration posters.

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/04/18/iraqi_protests/index.html

[Gobalopper]

Notice how a lot of those signs were of high quality from printing presses? That shows a lot of organization and they likely come from Iranian backed groups who hate America. Also thousands of people is not all of Iraq and isn't even a majority. Look at the protests in the US that had thousands of people when over 70% supported the war. And it would be stupid for the US to just leave Iraq now as it would result in chaos and the Iraqi's would be far worse off then they are now. That isn't what the US and probably a lot of Iraqi's want.

When power, water and other resources are restored and the government is ready then the US will start to leave, there hasn't even been an official end of hostilities document signed yet.

Are these the same people who took the statues down? I doubt it, there are statues all over Iraq, you're telling me that all those people came to Baghdad to protest the US?

[Egeides]

Well the same that were pulling statues down also had anti-US ideas too. For exemple, look at what happen when some put the US flag on the statue's head. I also know that each time I read an article coming from an Iraqi, it was saying yes for US intervention but also, in the same article, no for US staying there. Worries were shown.

Remember also that US got benefits each time it intevened in the Middle East: Iran, Afghanistan (twice), Iraq (once + now), and many others if we consider that Israel is attacking with US weapons.

Sometimes it was strategic, sometimes it was to construc pipelines (Afghanistan...) and sometimes direct access to oil. We can also add Turkey that has US helicopter against Kurds and is using bio/chemical weapons against people (like dissidents).

So the arabic world has quite an history with USA and people tend to remember.

I should also notice this: the oil wells were ultra-protected but one of the greatest museum about Arab history had NOTHING to protect it.

[Gobalopper]

I already know that Iraqi's want the US to go eventually, its the idea that the majority of Iraqi's want the US to leave now that I'm disagreeing with.

The oil wells were protected because they are the future of Iraq. Without them the Iraqi people are poor and have little chance of rebuilding what Saddam has destroyed.

[SurlyPIG]

Also note that the wells that were burning in both wars are extremely toxic. They put soot in the air for miles, in the Gulf war the ocean was actually blackened. You could see it on satellite the areas that were covered by the pollution from the arsoned oil.

[Egeides]

I wouldn't be surprise to know that the US find a reason to economically stay. W.Bush made his money out of Iraq after Kuweit war + Cheney and friends are oil people.

I propose we put some biddings ;D

[Miles]

I completely understand the skepticism that exists with many Iraqis. Remember, they were fed propoganda from Saddam Hussein saying that we were there to conquer them. It is understandable that even with Saddam gone, these fears would linger.

I think that as time goes on, our intentions become clearer, and the Iraqis begin to live better lives under their own government, these fears will subside. But it is understandable for a people to be suspect of an occupying foreign army.

I think, though, that it is fitting that Edric and some other anti-americans on this board be proven wrong in his assertions that anti-americanism would be squashed under American tyranny as these protestors are allowed to voice their opinions in their new freedom.

[SurlyPIG]

Well put, Miles. I think the fact that Iraqis are now having their right to expression honoured (literally an overnight change) is a sign of things to come.

[nemafakei]

It is long since there has been advantage of such as the US for 'quashing' demonstrations. Ignoring them tends to work much better, since stopping demonstrations martyrs them, in a sense.

[Edric O]

Exactly, Nema.

The US government is by no means stupid. They don't oppress people for the fun of it. They only do it if it brings them a profit. And right now, with all eyes turned to Iraq, it would do them nothing but harm if they restricted freedom of speech for the Iraqis.

Besides, why bother stopping demonstrations when you can simply ignore them?

[Miles]

Exactly, Nema.

The US government is by no means stupid. They don't oppress people for the fun of it. They only do it if it brings them a profit. And right now, with all eyes turned to Iraq, it would do them nothing but harm if they restricted freedom of speech for the Iraqis.

Besides, why bother stopping demonstrations when you can simply ignore them?

Well, your wrong. This is the way we do things. We do not oppress. Freedom of speech is our greatest right in this country, and it is the right that we would have given to all people.

I'm curous though, what precedent do you base these opinions on? Why would you see us as oppressors, when it is against EVERYTHING that we stand for and believe in?

[SurlyPIG]

Nema and Edric, would you rather they kill the protesters or something?

[Edric O]

Well, your wrong. This is the way we do things. We do not oppress. Freedom of speech is our greatest right in this country, and it is the right that we would have given to all people.

I'm curous though, what precedent do you base these opinions on? Why would you see us as oppressors, when it is against EVERYTHING that we stand for and believe in?

We base them on everything the US did in foreign countries for the past 50 years. Your governments have been all friendly and freedom-loving on the inside, but ruthlessly oppressive on the outside. You have supported murderous fascist dictators on all continents. Here's just a handful of examples:

South Korea

South Vietnam

Cuba

Chile

Greece

Iran

...and that's just the ones I could remember on the spot.

Ace, what we would want them to do is to actually pay some attention to what the Iraqis want. You know, Iraq being their country and all...

[Acriku]

A lot of things have been done for the interests of America, and capitalism, and good has come out of it - like improving foreign relations with China and Russia, pit them against each other and one of the communist regimes will fall, without American lives lost. And about South Korea, the US government strongly urged Diem to hear his people's cries, and get their support. But he didn't, and made it worse.

We supported them for American interests, and we go against them for American and the world interests.

And how the hell would the Iraqi know what they want? They've been under submission for many years, ascribed to a lot of propoganda, not even getting the right education. So, sometimes we have to overlook what they want and find what's best for them, whether they want it or not.