Endgame

[Miles]

The republican guard has been destroyed in Baghdad. Saddam's regime cannot pose a real threat to our armored divisions moving through Baghdad. The Iraqi population is showing signs now of support for coalition forces since the threat of Saddam's oppression is fading.

I think the endgame has begun. We will continue to have resistance from paramilitaries which might continue for a long time now, but I don't think they pose a real threat to our overall mission.

The massive civilian uprising against coalition forces which some on this site have foolishly predicted has not materialized. In fact, many civilians are now seeming to support coalition troops.

The new government of Iraq is now being discussed more indepth, and I think it will involve both exiled Iraqis and representation of current Iraqi civilians.

I hope that many on this site are prepared to eat a lot of crow in the coming month.

[Acriku]

Ah, it was only matter of time before they would eat what they said ;D

[Miles]

It's only a matter of time, and as the song goes: "tiiiiiiiiiiiiime is one our side...yes it is." ;D

[Terror]

the only thing that bugs me like hell is that iraq and the US speak both of different things...

The US claimed that they destroyed an iraq division of 12.000 men. While Iraq tells us that they only lost 12 men and they had 35 wounded in that devision...

This just sucks, now i can't draw a picture at all

[ken124578]

The iraqi's also denied that the us had taken over their airport, they also deny that the us had made a small march in baghdad for each of these claims there is alot of evidence (in the shape of films and photo's) from journalists.

[Edric O]

The only thing that hasn't materialized was the prediction that the war would be long and drawn-out. And I never supported that hypothesis.

As for the rest, everything is just as I suspected it would be. Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction, as proven by the fact that he didn't use any. But US officials will plant evidence to incriminate him, of course... and many people will believe their lies. A US military government will be installed in Baghdad and the Iraqi people will live under the boot of foreign occupation. Iraqi oil will flow for the benefit of the corporations who hold the strings of the puppet called Bush.

And the media will show us happy pictures of happy Iraqis, because the unhappy ones will have a tendency to dissapear in the middle of the night.

[Acriku]

Edric, not using them is not any proof at all, nor evidence. So, nice try.

[Dude_Doc]

As for the rest, everything is just as I suspected it would be. Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction, as proven by the fact that he didn't use any.

The war isn't over yet. What if they find WMDs then? Would you believe the media lied then?

And why use them on the troops in towns? Saddam could very well give them to al-Quaeda or other terrorist groups.

A US military government will be installed in Baghdad and the Iraqi people will live under the boot of foreign occupation. Iraqi oil will flow for the benefit of the corporations who hold the strings of the puppet called Bush.

So you believe it is better to have a dictator that kills people than a dictator that does not? Would you choose to be ruled by Hitler instead of say, Cruschov? Besides, who ever said anything about a dictatorship? They will install a democratic government, one that is chosen by the Iraqi people. Read the news more often to find out...

And the media will show us happy pictures of happy Iraqis, because the unhappy ones will have a tendency to dissapear in the middle of the night.

Funny. You think that people in America that doesn't support this war dissapears during the night? Or why not in Romania? Why would they? They can hate it as much as they want to. The thing is that they do not die because their leader wants to. You can already see that Iraqis do support the coalition forces.

After all this, I still can't understand you. You say that humans should help each other to build a better society, yet, you support a dictator who kills his own people. Don't you think it's good that Hussein finally looses his power? Wouldn't you rather see a world full of dictators than of a world full of democracy?

[Gobalopper]

Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction, as proven by the fact that he didn't use any.

By that logic the US doesn't have any WMD either. ::)

[Miles]

[c]

As for the rest, everything is just as I suspected it would be. Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction, as proven by the fact that he didn't use any. But US officials will plant evidence to incriminate him, of course... and many people will believe their lies.

Ahhh, there is your cop out. "the US will plant evidence". So, no matter what, you will believe what you want to believe even if ALL evidence is to the contrary.

A US military government will be installed in Baghdad and the Iraqi people will live under the boot of foreign occupation. Iraqi oil will flow for the benefit of the corporations who hold the strings of the puppet called Bush.

This "boot of foreign occupation" will consist of providing food, medicine, water, freedom and security until a representative Iraqi government can be installed. Do you honestly believe that this is less favorable than Saddam's regime?

And the media will show us happy pictures of happy Iraqis, because the unhappy ones will have a tendency to dissapear in the middle of the night.

Have you watched ANY news up to now? Much of the media has criticised the war plan and pointed out the fact that we have not seen the celebration in the streets that we expected. This was a big setback in public relations. This certainly doesn't sound like the reporting that you expected.

In fact, Early in our seige on Basra, I saw some Iraqis criticising us as they took the humanitarian aid that we gave them.

Fortunately, now we see that as Saddam's influence is being lifted, we ARE seeing appreciation for our efforts. You have been proven wrong, and will be proven wrong after the war and the Iraqis are living MUCH better lives than they are now.

But instead of admitting being wrong and eating your words, you will rationalize, deny, and lie to dance around your blunder. I feel sorry for you.

[Acriku]

A-a-men. Miles does it again!

Every time I watched the news in the beginning of the war, I saw hatred. Now, I see Iraqi citizens trashing every picture of Saddam - and when one was asked why he tore down the Saddam picture, he replied, "Because I can." Truly the best answer.

[SurlyPIG]

Damn good reason.

Edric, that's got to be the least logical, most unfounded, most speculated argument I've ever seen you post.

[Egeides]

Whattever the WMA stuff, the thing is what will US administration do AFTER... Will it be done to the advantage of oil lobbies or not? Colonial empires always had good reasons to attack (like UK in India), but who's profitting?

[Acriku]

I believe that both parties will profit from the exchanges. The food-for-oil program by the U.N. allows the Iraqi to regain supplies by giving off their oil.

[quoudam72]

I think that program needs to be changed slighty. My reason being that now the Saddam is being forced out of power (he was the main reason for the sanctions) the Iraq people should receive some money (money can only then be used the reestablish governmental needs for the population with strict guidelines as how the money can be used) from their oil instead of just giving it away this I think could help regenerate their economy after all a rebuilding period will have to begin somewhere. My overall vision is that if they receive some money from their oil they can in fact help pay for the rebuilding of their country instead of someone else paying for rebuilding.

[ken124578]

The US isn't forcing them to give their oil to them in exchange of food, it's their choice.

[quoudam72]

Did you see anywhere in my post about anyone forcing them to do that I made a suggestive idea. If you must respond pay attention and do not assume so much Ken.

[nemafakei]

My apologies.. I didn't see the other thread... rectifying...

Done. Acriku, see the WMD in Iraq thread, if you're looking for your 'lost' post. I like Gob's new split/merge functions!

[Miles]

I think that program needs to be changed slighty. My reason being that now the Saddam is being forced out of power (he was the main reason for the sanctions) the Iraq people should receive some money (money can only then be used the reestablish governmental needs for the population with strict guidelines as how the money can be used) from their oil instead of just giving it away this I think could help regenerate their economy after all a rebuilding period will have to begin somewhere. My overall vision is that if they receive some money from their oil they can in fact help pay for the rebuilding of their country instead of someone else paying for rebuilding.

I couldn't agree more. The oil in Iraq needs to be changed to currency for the people. Then their government can start paying their own way and become independant of the US more quickly. Iraq has enough oil that their citizens should have standards of living similar to the Kuwaiti people. The sooner that money gets into the hands of Iraqi civilians, the sooner they, and other countries will realize the magnitude of what we did for them.

[Edric O]

The war isn't over yet. What if they find WMDs then? Would you believe the media lied then?

And why use them on the troops in towns? Saddam could very well give them to al-Quaeda or other terrorist groups.

If they find evidence which simply doesn't add up (such as WMD's that Saddam didn't use for some strange reason), then it is perfectly reasonable and even advisable to have suspicions about the whole affair. With all due respect, most of you are extremely credulous. I know very well that I'm being overly paranoid. But by doing so, I'm bringing a healthy dose of skepticism into this forum.

who ever said any

thing about a dictatorship? They will install a democratic government, one that is chosen by the Iraqi people. Read the news more often to find out...

I've read the news all right. They intend to install a US-lead military dictatorship, for an "indefinite" period of time.

Until I see a democratic Iraqi leader in Baghdad, I won't believe any of Bush's propaganda.

Funny. You think that people in America that doesn't support this war dissapears during the night? Or why not in Romania? Why would they? They can hate it as much as they want to. The thing is that they do not die because their leader wants to. You can already see that Iraqis do support the coalition forces.

The US government has no interest in oppressing its own people (seeing as how that would mean signing their own death warrant). But they can easily oppress the Iraqi people and get away with it... Not to mention boosting their profits in the oil business while they're at it.

After all this, I still can't understand you. You say that humans should help each other to build a better society, yet, you support a dictator who kills his own people. Don't you think it's good that Hussein finally looses his power? Wouldn't you rather see a world full of dictators than of a world full of democracy?

How can you say that I would ever support a monster like Saddam Hussein. I utterly despise all dictators, the bastard Hussein included. It's a GOOD thing to have him removed, but not like this! I fear that once he's gone, the Iraqi people will have more to suffer than before.

I'll tell you what: Once the war is officially over, I'll watch Iraq closely for 6 months. If the US government keeps its promises, I WILL eat my words, with whipped cream on top. :)

But somehow, I have great doubts about them keeping true to their word...

Edit: Yes, Ace, you're right - I was extremely tired when I wrote that...

[Acriku]

Military government (pro tempore) is required to maintain peace and stability while the government is being installed. It takes time to make a government work, especially in places like Iraq. And for the people to get used to it.

[SurlyPIG]

"If they find evidence which simply doesn't add up (such as WMD's that Saddam didn't use for some strange reason), then it is perfectly reasonable and even advisable to have suspicions about the whole affair."

Miles pointed out very well in his other thread that Saddam still wants public opinion on his side, a good reason not to use weapons. Also, using such weapons when this entire war is about WMDs to the international community would be a grave mistake. He was able to get away with using them in the Gulf war because it was more about the fact that he invaded Kuwait.

[Edric O]

And what good will public opinion do him if he's dead? If they say they found WMD's, I won't buy it unless they come up with a good explanation for why Saddam didn't use them, better than "he didn't feel like it".

And Gob, I hope you do realize how flawed your analogy is. If a foreign army invaded the US, crushed the US army to dust in a matter of weeks and got ready to storm Washington DC, you're telling me that Bush wouldn't use nukes?

[Miles]

And what good will public opinion do him if he's dead? If they say they found WMD's, I won't buy it unless they come up with a good explanation for why Saddam didn't use them, better than "he didn't feel like it".

Can you say martyrdom?

And Gob, I hope you do realize how flawed your analogy is. If a foreign army invaded the US, crushed the US army to dust in a matter of weeks and got ready to storm Washington DC, you're telling me that Bush wouldn't use nukes?

Maybe, maybe not. Are you honestly saying that the motivations of Bush are comparable to Saddam Hussein? Saddam Hussein's goal was to be the leader and hero of the Arab world. As long as he does not vindicate the US by using WMD, then his status as a martyr and hero to the Arabs will be ensured. I think he is very motivated by how he will be perceived in the Arab history books.

I also think he still holds a glimmer of hope that even in defeat, he can go to the Arab world and lobby for forces to retake Iraq. He loses ANY credibility to do so if he uses WMD. I think that he really believes that he will survive this, even in defeat.

His motivation for abstaining from the use of WMD is more than "he feels like it". It would be an incredibly stupid move for him to use them. He wants to be the victim, not the villain.