The Dune Sea?

[Guest LtTitan]

I have been reading House Atreides for a while now, and I came to one point where Pardot Kynes discovers that Arrakis once had oceans and such. He was trying to figure out what happened to them. In what book does it explain these things, or can someone just tell me plain out? I will eventually read all the Dune books (hopefully), but some things I wish to find out more about.

Another question is about the Fremen. The Fremen are descendants of the Zensunni people, who saught refuge on Dune during the machine takeover. If Dune was a desolate barren place filled with the dangerous worms, how did those people survive there long enough to create an entire civilization?

[Andrew]

1. I believe the planet once had lots of water on it, but the sandtrout somehow got rid of it (as they eat/use it in some way) and transformed it into desert.

2. They moved and adapted (my guess).

[TMA_1]

this strikes out to me as the biggest sign of divinity in frank's books. Where did teh worm and sandtrout come from? they were alien to the environment. The DE states that animals began to evolve to a stage of not needing to use water. that they became new spieces and grew, but the worm is a mystery, its just so bizzare.

[Scrinlord]

The sandtrout hide the water and cover it up, so that the water is not in the sand, because when the sand is dry, sandtrout evolve into worms.

[Vanguard3000]

Back when Arrakis had water, the sandtrout would form "bubbles" around moisture, and draw it deep underground, where they would ferment it along with their own secretions in a process which would create the Spice. Eventually, almost all of the moisture was removed from the surface (and the air, for the most part), and the sandtrout began forming into worms (i.e. thousands of sandtrout -> 1 worm).

TMA: I always wondered that too. I see it either as an alien thing (which would make for some really neat fanfic. I think I had a good story about that, but I forgot it), or an "Act of God". I don't think such a creature could be created through evolution alone.

[GhostHunter]

I would say it evolved from lower creatures and as you mentioned, learned to live without water. Sort of like the human evolution in a way.

[Guest LtTitan]

Was it ever explained in any of the books?

[Mahdi]

The sandtrout arrived from another world, and turned Arrakis into a desert planet, like they transformed chapterhouse into a desert planet.

[GhostHunter]

I would doubt that Mahdi. After all, if there were sandtrout on another planet then the spice wouldn't just be on Arrakis.

[Andrew]

I believe they came from another planet also. I thought I read that somewhere

[Mahdi]

It says so in the books.

[GhostHunter]

Well then the books are wrong. Not because I'm stubborn but think of common logic here. If there was soundtrout from another planet then the spice would be on another planet.

Consideration: Well it might be on another planet they never found.

Can't be this way. Think about it, they didn't have the hieghliners back then so it would have to be transported by ship. Issue here is that, worms can't survive long outside their enviroment and what makes soundtrout capable of accomplishing this?

[Andrew]

Not necessarily, it all depends on climate etc.

[Acriku]

They transported a worm in the later books and established an Arrakis II of sorts, so it's entirely possible.

[GhostHunter]

Remember what they mentioned during the Amal project? The Bene. guy (Name illudes me at the moment) said the worm would die withen a few days.

Now if a worm is SO huge and has such great slef preservation meathods, what on EARTH makes you think the sandtrout could survive even 1/100 of the time a worm could offworld?

[GhostHunter]

They transported a worm in the later books and established an Arrakis II of sorts, so it's entirely possible.

Yes towards the ending of the series, we are talking about 100's of thousands of years before this if Dune was transformed into a desert (Which is was).

[Acriku]

Perhaps there is a possibility of a higher alien race that put sandworms on Arrakis a long time ago? Heh Raelian-Dune of sorts ;)

[GhostHunter]

Perhaps there is a possibility of a higher alien race that put sandworms on Arrakis a long time ago? Heh Raelian-Dune of sorts ;)

No substansial evidence. Arguement lost by Acriku...One point for GhostHunter...

<< Looks at Andrew >>

I'm waiting ;D

[Acriku]

Ok, I guess we aren't pondering about the possibilities that lay in the Duniverse.

[GhostHunter]

It's asking are we alone in the universe. There is not substansial proof Acriku, it is the equivilent to relegion, belief and faith. I could sit here for teh rest of my days saying "What if."

[Acriku]

If we are going to talk about a book that has 400 meter long sandworms, with blue-eyed Fremen running around, and navigators bending time and space, and not discuss the possibility of a higher alien race, then why are we discussing at all?

[GhostHunter]

There is no substansial proof of this. There is more to lean over onto my side. The human race NEVER found aliens Acriku, so that is the biggest factor. You can say "What if.." all you want but they never found them Acriku, and Frank never really led you to believe that. Not to say there might NOT of been aliencs Acriku, but the evidence leans over to my side. And since Franks not with us any longer we can only go off of what we know.

[Zopwx2]

we dont want to complicate the dune story even more by adding aliens.

[Acriku]

I meant it to give you something to think about, jesus christ...

[Guest LtTitan]

I dont think anyone has answered the quesion. Is it ever explained in any of the books? Its like this thread has been argueing about something that doesnt exist. Perhaps the soundtrout were indigenous to Arrakis but evolved and consumed mass amounts of water and thats how they grew to their enormous size. Then they adapted to the sands or perhaps even lived in the sand under the water. Or perhaps the currect Arrakis environment is the result of some cataclysmic phenomenon?

Just answer my question of wether or not its explained in any books, so I can read these books and figure it out for myself.