zamboe Posted March 11, 2003 Posted March 11, 2003 In this particular case against Bush's war.It really interesting that some self proclaimed christians in this forum are supporting and promoting a war. Such a christians they are !. More likely sound like lucifer.The point is, I haven't know/read/watched/listen of any Christian Religious leader of any denomination that actually supports war as Bush admninistration does, ALL of religious leaders (The Pope for example) have expressed their opposition to WAR.If you are a supporter of Bush's war and you think you are Christian, go and find out what your Church thinks about the war that's about to happen, you'll see you are completly wrong.Maybe those so self proclaimed Christians that promote war and murders in massive numbers, should go over Christian principles, otherwise they must make it's own sect.Christianity is against any WAR by definition.
emprworm Posted March 11, 2003 Posted March 11, 2003 im against war with Iraq.I am for taking out Hussein. call it war if you want, but Christianity isn't against that at all.
DjCiD Posted March 11, 2003 Posted March 11, 2003 Sorry, I missed that verse in my Bible... :- What chapter was that?I was under the impression that in the end times there will be wars and rumors of wars. Well just according to Revelations and whatnot.
emprworm Posted March 11, 2003 Posted March 11, 2003 dont forget that God uses humans to topple other governments. God does not change either. And I believe that GOd is still in the business of toppling governments like He always has been.
zamboe Posted March 11, 2003 Author Posted March 11, 2003 im against war with Iraq.ROTFLMAO NOT EVEN YOU CAN BELIEVE THAT.
zamboe Posted March 11, 2003 Author Posted March 11, 2003 You choose between being a true Christian (any denomination) or support those war seekers and not being a Christian.
Gobalopper Posted March 11, 2003 Posted March 11, 2003 I don't know if you missed this zamboe but Islam is already fighting a war against every other religion/non-religion in the world. And guess what, that includes Christianity too.The problem you have zamboe is you don't trust the US government and that has nothing to do with religion. If you believe the gov't then there is no reason to think that taking out Saddam is wrong. Not everyone will agree with the decision but not everyone has the knowledge and intelligence that Bush has access too.But to say that supporting the US gov't in removing Saddam means you aren't a Christian is definitely not true.
Nyarlathotep Posted March 11, 2003 Posted March 11, 2003 Not everyone will agree with the decision but not everyone has the knowledge and intelligence that Bush has access too.You mean the reports that Bush let his intelligence directors amend to be positive for Bush himself ::)
Caid Ivik Posted March 11, 2003 Posted March 11, 2003 Christianity is against killing. Any killing, even civilian slaughteries Iraqi leader has made. Christianity agrees with punishment for law braking, and US are going to punish Saddam for his brake against the international law. Don't you remember, give to Caesar what Caesar's is...?
die4honr Posted March 11, 2003 Posted March 11, 2003 just because "The Pope" is against it doesnt mean it is against Christianity
DjCiD Posted March 11, 2003 Posted March 11, 2003 If Christians are against war, what was the point of the Crusades? Was it a rebellious period or something?
Edric O Posted March 11, 2003 Posted March 11, 2003 The Crusades were an abomination to God started by corrupt Church leaders who wanted only power and wealth...Perhaps some of you will remember this:Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.- Matthew 5:9
Dante Posted March 11, 2003 Posted March 11, 2003 Actually I don't remember but it's still very applicable.
emprworm Posted March 11, 2003 Posted March 11, 2003 the crusades took place over a 200 year period. some of that was self-defense, some of it barbaric. church critics use the crusades as a crutch to show the "evil" of religion on earth. the problem is they don't have the first clue about what they really were. Christianity does not endorse war, though it allows for it under certain pretexts. Christianity is all about war- a spiritual war of good and evil, as Paul often talks about putting on the "armor of God" and taking up the sword of the spirit. The new testament is filled with war allegory. Often times, the spiritual war that we fight manifests itself physically into human violence. defending yourself or protecting the innocent through use of force is definately not something Jesus would want in heaven, but it is most certainly not forbidden in Christianity
Dante Posted March 11, 2003 Posted March 11, 2003 Why use religion to justify/disprove war anyway? Aren't morals enough?
Edric O Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 I don't know what kind of sick and twisted view of Christianity you have, Emprworm, but you are going directly against everything Jesus stood for... First you say (in another topic) that God doesn't want us to build a better world, and now this... Ever heard the expression "turn the other cheek", Emprworm? Do I have to remind you how Jesus repeated this, over and over again, in various forms?
emprworm Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 Jesus told his disciples to buy a sword.turning the other cheek means to endure for yourself.it does not mean turn someone else's cheek so they can get beat some more.
SurlyPIG Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 If I were a Christian I would be mighty pissed off by this blatantly false, sweeping statement of guilt-appeal. It's not as if Iraq is at peace you know.The Crusades were an abomination to God started by corrupt Church leaders who wanted only power and wealth...Perhaps some of you will remember this:Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.- Matthew 5:9And what a wonderful job the peacemakers of the world have done in getting Saddam to hold legitimate elections, acknowledge the rights of women, stopping him from murdering people who don't support him, and stopping him from committing ethnic and religious genocide. Yeah, well done there. I mean its not as if those things are characteristic of, gee I dunno, WAR...
zamboe Posted March 12, 2003 Author Posted March 12, 2003 im against war with Iraq.I am for taking out Hussein. call it war if you want, but Christianity isn't against that at all.You for killing people in a war, that in it's very simple form is a complete contradiction to Christianity. I wonder how you consider yourself Christian, and at the same time pursue and look for an inmediate war, for an inmediate killing of people. (both sides).You talk different than you walk.
SurlyPIG Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 Exaggerations (poorly worded I might add).I can say with certainty that if it were possible to remove Saddam's regime without killing anyone on either side, not only would emprworm support it but it would have been done long ago. Just because he reckognized that impossibility doesn't mean he "for an inmediate killing of people" as you (lie to) claim he does.
DjCiD Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 I was one my way home tonite and happened to catch Break Point with Chuck Colson. It was an interesting topic, and I would like to share it with you. You can visit the site to read the whole story but I'll quote for you also.Break Point - Christian Perspective on Today's News and Trends.One Last Chance <---- that's the link ;)One Last Chance BreakPoint with Charles ColsonMarch 11, 2003Prayers for PeaceComing out of church Sunday morning, two women on the steps stopped me. With anguished faces they asked, "Mr. Colson, are you for the war?" Most Americans simplify the issue of war in Iraq to either anti-war or pro-war. When the ladies at the church asked me if I was for war, I answered, "No, I’m not for war." Then I added, "I don’t know anybody who is. In fact, I’ve joined a group of religious leaders to urge people to fast and pray this week that God might miraculously intervene and bring an end to Saddam Hussein’s terrible, dangerous tyranny in Iraq so that war becomes unnecessary." But I wanted to assure them that if nothing happened this week to stop war, I thought President Bush had made a case that war was justified. In this terrorist age, for the security of America and the stability of civilization, weapons of mass destruction cannot remain in Saddam’s hands.We have to remember that war is an extension of the authority God gives the state to restrain evil. And it is entirely biblical. The power of the sword, remember, is given to government by God to preserve peace in a fallen world. The peace marchers in cities around the world have good intentions but wrong anthropology. Their presupposition is that if you don’t do anything, everybody will live together peacefully. They have forgotten our fallen nature. Evil is the normal condition in this world, not the exception.Christians have a totally different understanding of this issue. We don’t see war with Iraq as aggression or even as primarily a military action. We don’t see it as conquering or defending territory. Rather it is, as Thomas Aquinas put it, an act of Christian love. Out of love of neighbor, we are even willing to use arms to protect the innocent. Christian charity will not look the other way when innocent people are being put in grave danger.Before our troops go in to remove Saddam and destroy his weapons of mass destruction, we are asking Christians to pray that God, in His providence, will miraculously intervene so that war becomes unnecessary.The president made it clear last Thursday: Saddam can disarm. He also indicated that if Saddam was out of the picture, the new government could disarm. Scripture is full of examples of God bringing down unjust tyrants. He can do it again. Pray for these things. Peace is our first choice.Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq must be eliminated—weapons that could otherwise fall into the hands of terrorists and be used against us and others. If peace does not come through voluntary disarmament and we are forced to send in troops, pray for a quick conflict, the safety of our forces and the Iraqis, and that a long peace may result. This is a momentous week. More is at stake at this moment than at any time I can remember since the days of World War II. May God give us all wisdom and grace. May righteousness prevail.
zamboe Posted March 12, 2003 Author Posted March 12, 2003 I don't know if you missed this zamboe but Islam is already fighting a war against every other religion/non-religion in the world. And guess what, that includes Christianity too.Indeed.Christianity teaches that we do not punch back. Or are you saying that given that some Islam fanatics kill some Christians, some western governments should declare war and invade whole countries ?Christians do not believe in war, there is no option.The problem you have zamboe is you don't trust the US government and that has nothing to do with religion. If you believe the gov't then there is no reason to think that taking out Saddam is wrong. Not everyone will agree with the decision but not everyone has the knowledge and intelligence that Bush has access too.Excuse me, but that's not a problem. Where I see the problem is that many people believe the US government. The fact that Saddam has lied, doesn't make all the US remarks true. That's what the NA media pretends us to believe that given the lack of credibility of Iraq that means that the US has 100% of credibility.Credibility is based on history and past records, and as in many other thread I've shown how the US has lied and supported dictatorial regimes, sold WMDs and more. There is no credibility on both sides. That's why I say the problem lies in those who trust the current US government.I believe many things the US government, for example when it comes to trade agreements (Recently US has started negotiation with Central America for a free trade agreement) I believe almost all Robert Zellick says (Secretary of commerce) because that's exactly what they will do. When it comes to foreing policy I belive nothing, well almost."Not everyone will agree with the decision but not everyone has the knowledge and intelligence that Bush has access too"That's not certain, I think nobody can support a war without knowing what the leaders known, that would be blind support, makes no sense.The international pressure is so high that if the US would have some hard proof they would have released time ago, but so far there is nothing, only speculation.But to say that supporting the US gov't in removing Saddam means you aren't a Christian is definitely not true.I say that supporting a WAR is not something a Christian would do.Let me put this example :Bush says "And yes my fellow citizens, We are going to invade Iraq without UN support and remove (aka kill) Saddam an all his people to liberate Iraq. God bless America", 2 minutes later he gives the order to invade and kill. That's using the name of God to start and support a war. You can't be wrong about it wheater you apply what Jesus said or you support war, I see no possible way to choose both.
SurlyPIG Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 And what are you supposed to do when struck, Zamboe? Take the blow and die? If Christians believed they would have been wiped out centuries ago by aggressive societies.
Gobalopper Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 zamboe TMA already brought up this same argument earlier and we had a big discussion about it then. At times war is necessary and Christianity does not specify that war must be avoided at all costs.
emprworm Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 im against war with Iraq.I am for taking out Hussein. call it war if you want, but Christianity isn't against that at all.You for killing people in a war, that in it's very simple form is a complete contradiction to Christianity. I wonder how you consider yourself Christian, and at the same time pursue and look for an inmediate war, for an inmediate killing of people. (both sides).You talk different than you walk.no, Christianity is your crutch for the anti-american sentiment. If it is unchristian to fight for the helpless Iraqi's, then it is unchristian to fight against the FARC. you consider yourself Christian and at the same time pursue and look for an immediate destruction and killing of FARC (knowing that any war against the FARC will result in killing on both sides- including FARC stepping up more civillian attacks).Of course, I don't mind that. The abolishment and punishment of the FARC is just. And so is the abolishment of the regime of Hussein. THe only thing I mind is this latest mask you use to cover your hatred of Bush/America. First its the 7 rich, opulent mansion-living, status-seeking, honored-by-men economisists and in this thread it is Christianity.You have a "Christian" problem with helping 23 million people to end their suffering under dictatorial barbarism, but have no "Christian" problem helping the Columbians end their suffering under FARC barbarism.You use Christianity to serve your political biases, and that is very sad. Your disguise is shallow.
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