Communism and Capitalism

[Edric O]

And who died and made Marx a god? We don't follow his every word, you know. He wasn't right about everything.

Of course I support a leftist republic. That is what I am trying to achieve. And a wide range of civil rights is a vital part of it.

As for supporting those communist countries - WHEN did I ever support North Korea? Far from it! North Korea is a bigger abomination than the Soviet Union!

I do support Cuba, because they once got extremely close to true communism, and they would have actually made it there, if the superpowers hadn't interfered. Castro had no choice but to comply with the USSR in order to defend himself from the USA...

[Caid Ivik]

Problem of marxistic communism is, that it was created by persons who did not believe in some kind of absolute morale. When middle-right was led by christian-democratic conservativists, they were talking about religion as "burjeauistic opium" and morale as "enslaving barriers".

[TMA_1]

the problem with marxist communism is it nears the line of anarchy. A government needs to be a shepherd, having a good control over its flock. Thats my opinion. Without a strong government, too many voices are present. That leads to chaos and eventual anarchy.

[Edric O]

Actually, Caid, the first socialists who ever existed had very concrete moral principles to guide them... they were the first Christians, you see.

[Caid Ivik]

Hm, there are still some people who believe that Jesus was a political leader...

But social unequality is sometimes shown, for example tale about servants with talents. But I think quoting Bible isn't good, we've had a discussion with Acriku on this.

[Acriku]

We did? I don't remember such a discussion...hmm, but what is wrong with quoting the bible, provided that you quote it as such and with what it says, and not a personal interpretation?

[Edric O]

Leaving Jesus aside, His followers DID live for almost 300 years in truly communist communities (no pun intended).

[Warlord Ripskar]

Capitalism?

Try India under the East India Company.

It was run as the most efficient country on the planet at the time and its civil service still leaves those of most other countries looking like a collection of layabout idiots.

That includes the developed world.

Of course there was a degree of ripping the place off but that paled to insignificance when the British Government took over.

The Company created the impetus for technological advance, they were the first to produce steam warships and Iron hulled ships.

Investment needed to be linked to posible profits so development had an undertone of later debt reclaimation.

Communism on the other hand seems to rely too much on individuals acting in an unnatural manner.

[emprworm]

Hm, there are still some people who believe that Jesus was a political leader...

But social unequality is sometimes shown, for example tale about servants with talents. But I think quoting Bible isn't good, we've had a discussion with Acriku on this.

what? Is edric quoting the Bible again to support Marxism? ::)

Can someone please enlighten Edric that Jesus taught when you give it must come from the heart as in VOLUNTARILY else don't give at all! The early church was not communistic in the slightest. They gave according to their free-will. NOt according to the "state" or imposed re-distribution. UNless a human being, as an individual, chooses freely to give to the Church or to God, it is meaningless to God. Communism is the death sentence to mans free-will, hence a vile ungodly form of Government. No wonder Marx despised God. It takes a God-hater to think up a god-hating form of government.

[TMA_1]

actually they were a communist group. They basically worked and toiled for the community. They gave everything to the group who would split it up among themselves farely. They also helped raise the children in the community and the like. It was a completely communal existance. It wasent a government or anything, but they were considered communist in their style of living. That is agreed upon by most christian scholars.

[Edric O]

TMA is right.

Emprworm doesn't seem to realize what communism is all about. Just like the early Christian communities, it's about VOLUNTARILY sharing all property and living as brothers and sisters. The communist utopia is exactly the society in which the early Christians lived.

Forcing people into communism defeats the whole purpose of it. You can't have forced communism. And the state serves the people, NOT the other way around.

[Chani]

Communism was only meant to work after a series of other states of rule had happened though wasnt it?

So so far we have only seen it fail becauser it was put into practice in countries not ready for it.

I think if people were capable of actually sticking to the Marxist perspective on things it could work.. but we'd have to follow his basic guidlines, else we'll all end up screwed.

Capitalism works... but is it *right*??

[emprworm]

actually they were a communist group. They basically worked and toiled for the community. They gave everything to the group who would split it up among themselves farely. They also helped raise the children in the community and the like. It was a completely communal existance. It wasent a government or anything, but they were considered communist in their style of living. That is agreed upon by most christian scholars.

TMA every single thing given by a human being for the church in early Christianity was fully voluntary. God does not force any Christian to give. COmmunism is drastically....HUGELY different in that it mandates and forces men to render to Casesar against their free-will.

God throughout scripture upholds mans free-will. Forcing people to give against their free-will to the state (Caesar) is diametrically opposed to early Christians who gave according to their free-will to the Church.

the exact same communities as described in the early church are fully obtainable in capitalistic societies. in fact, these are more genuine because people are choosing freely to give to God. exactly the way Jesus intended.

[Miles]

TMA is right.

Emprworm doesn't seem to realize what communism is all about. Just like the early Christian communities, it's about VOLUNTARILY sharing all property and living as brothers and sisters. The communist utopia is exactly the society in which the early Christians lived.

Forcing people into communism defeats the whole purpose of it. You can't have forced communism. And the state serves the people, NOT the other way around.

But in installing communism, a large number of the population would be opposed, so much of the population would be forced into it. If you are hoping for 100% support for ANYTHING in a government, then good luck. You would be doing something that no one in history has even come close to--except Saddam Hussein... ;D

to emprworm, you can have some socialist values in a primarily capitalistic society. The US does now incorporate small portions of it in our welfare, and medicaid. We could take this a step further and create a universal health care system so that if a child from a poor family gets cancer, then they do not have to have a fund raiser to try to keep her alive (this happened just recently in my community). Their doctor bills were outrageous.

I strongly oppose government control of all land, and think that private ownership is essential to liberty. As do I oppose the government taking inheritance to give to the state. This, and many reasons is why I lean towards a capitalistic society with some socialist characteristics.

[TMA_1]

I think people are confusing communism and socialism.

[emprworm]

how am I confusing it? I am quoting from the Communist Manifesto. This is not socialism I am quoting. Marx says that the state controls all wealth and re-distributes. This is so far from early christianity it isn't even funny.

The early christians gave their wealth of their own free will. It wasn't forced out of their hands by some centralized "church power". In fact, Jesus specifically taught that unless you give freely of your own free-will with a joyful heart, then God doesn't even want your money- don't even bother. Communism (not socialism) as defined by Marx, strips man of his free-will.

All this crap about early christians being commies is pure crap. They gave THEIR POSSESIONS THAT THEY OWNED of their own free-will and gave to the church. This is so far different from communism it is as far as the east from the west.

[TMA_1]

the early christian communities were not governments. They didnt follow marxist ideals because those ideas didnt even come into existance.lol Most theologens and scholars of christianity agree with this. They lived in a communistic lifestyle. Communism isnt set like you state it. Just like the way we use capitalism. it isnt used the same everwhere. There are different forms of it.

[emprworm]

the early christian communities were not governments. They didnt follow marxist ideals because those ideas didnt even come into existance.lol Most theologens and scholars of christianity agree with this. They lived in a communistic lifestyle. Communism isnt set like you state it. Just like the way we use capitalism. it isnt used the same everwhere. There are different forms of it.

i will agree only to this: it looked communistic, but it wasn't. early christians were under no church law that demanded/redistributed their goods. early christians gave freely according to their convictions and personal choices. this is sooooooo unlike communism. Communism leaves no choice to the individual. Even though Edric tries to argue that his version is democratic, this is bogus because any child born in Edric's society will have no ability to "decide" whether or not to give to the "state". THe state simply takes.

Then you run into the horrible problem of equating state with church. Trying to say that because early Christians freely gave their posessions to the church therefore means that we need a government (i.e. a "Caesar") that mandates forced giving to the state is a hermeneutical catastrophe and an exegetical nightmare.

[TMA_1]

no no no

They gave to the government as ascribed by the Lord. They just lived together in a community of like minded christians. Today, there are groups like this. Not as many that were as noble, but there are still. if done right, it is a wonderful experiance of knowing everybody and being true bothers and sisters in christ.

[emprworm]

no no no

They gave to the government as ascribed by the Lord. They just lived together in a community of like minded christians. Today, there are groups like this. Not as many that were as noble, but there are still. if done right, it is a wonderful experiance of knowing everybody and being true bothers and sisters in christ.

i have no disagreement with you TMA. But that is not communism even remotely according to what Karl Marx has wrote about. That is not even the "ideal paper version" of Marxism. It is totally, completely, radically different than Marxist communism. I thought that we were arguing that the early church practiced Marxist communism. I'm sorry, perhaps I misjudged the subject of debate. :-[

[TMA_1]

nonono its okay man. Its just not every single form of communism is marxist communism.

[emprworm]

nonono its okay man. Its just not every single form of communism is marxist communism.

well yea for sure. communism can simply mean a "form of community" and thats what the early church was. so sure, I am in complete agreement. Many Elderly retirement communities, for example, here in capitalist US are very "communistic" in this sense. But in relation to marxism and the Communist Manifesto, it's nothing like it at all.

[DukeLeto]

You mean like Socialism? ;)

No, free enterprise and private businesses should be free to succeed without government control, although I think some general restrictions need to be in place to avoid monopolies etc... but we already have that.

Only those institutions vital to our nations health need to be socialized. A couple possible examples would be health care and essential energy (like heating homes).

I don't support government control over everything.

I don't believe you quite understand socialism:

The government would provide the people with education, medical help, protection (military and police), basic nutrition, and spartan housing (with things like water and electricity). You want more, you get a job and pay for it yourself. So yes, there can be a little bit of both.

[sneezer3]

I think some of you guys are confuseing Monarchy with Communism. God wants people to have a free will not be slaves.

The people in Bible times were under Monarchy.

[Caid Ivik]

I think there will be never some differentiation between state, which provides security and justice and the society, which builds the people.