Creation by God / Big Bang Theory

[emprworm]

interesting:

if i make a post in the evolution thread, i get an atheistic response within a minute. yet once again, this argument goes ignored by said atheists. this is what, the 14th time now? lol.

atheism exposed for the faith that it is. thats about all i can say to that.

[Acriku]

Heh ok emprworm, :)

[Inoculator9]

I agree with Acriku, humans have such a narrow view on what logic actually is, that to proclaim such things about logic to be truths is arrogant. We can't limit ourselves to three options until science has more fully revealed itself to us.

[sneezer3]

Yes. When I'm about to take a corner kick in soccer, I pick some grass and drop it. I see the wind blow it in the direction of breeze. You can see coloured gases blow in the wind. Clouds too.

Yes, of course I can talk to the wind. But the wind is inanimate, so that would be stupid. The fact that it cannot answer indicates its lack of intelligence.

Yes, I can feel the wind. If you cannot there is probably something wrong with your nervous system.

Yes, the wind is objectively proven. You can see it in the way it blows the trees, clouds, storms, and forms hurricanes and tornadoes. You can test to create your own. You can observe how it is formed and see it in action. It is iron clad. Undisputable.

You mis understood my point, but while doing so proved it even more.

In the same way, you can't see the wind, but can see stuff blow in it etc. Just becase we can't "see" God, we can know he still exists. he has given us many many signs. mostly in Prophecy. with the stuff in it, it could no come from nowhere else but a Devine Source.

In Science.

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. - Job 26:7

in Prophecy

Nahum 2:3

The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet: the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken.

Air Pollution has killed most of the fir trees in the forests. Mostly Pines and fir trees.

Nahum 2:4

The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.

::) Sounds a lot like a car.

That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. -Deut 30:3

Israel is a living fulfillment of God's prophecy. They were scattered in A.D. 70 and returned in A.D. 1948.

There is a lot more i could name but what it all really comes down to is this.

If we cannot believe the Bible, we will not believe at all - miracle or no miracle. And this is what God asks, just what we don't want to give- Faith.

Yes, you did miss something. A lot of things. Things in the bible that contradict the principles of omnipotence. If God is perfect and we are created in his image, why is it necessary to send some of his perfect creations to hell?

Ah, questions! i love questions!!

Simple, because we are no longer perfect and Sin needs a payment.

The phrase "We are all sinners" That would suggest the opposite of what the bible claims about God. A perfect being cannot make imperfect creations.

Well, God can do anything. but he did make us perfect and we blew it over a temptation.

Also, the phrase "We are all sinners" would suggest that every single person goes to hell. Every single one. Many believe this not to be true. This is elaborated, and God is said to be both just and merciful. However these two are obvious contradictions (note - a perfect being cannot contradict itself). It suggests that all God's creations are NOT equal. That He, for lack of a better term, picks favourites to send to heaven and sends the rest to hell. The guy on emprworm's ex-atheist site has no explanation for this contradiction. In fact he doesn't address it, only saying that all should be happy for those who were shown mercy.

The lack that he doesn't adress it means he don't know, thats all.

You are correct that it suggests that, however In order to get to heaven you must become perfect. The Bible says it preety clearly.

We are equeal in the fact that we are all humens and all sinners. a Christan is just a sinner saved by Grace. but still a sinner. while perfect though Jesus.

Did you not read what I said at all? First, evolution has NOTHING to do with the origin of the universe. If you think it does then you *clearly* do not understand what evolution is (and probably the big bang theory too. Acriku pointed this out several pages ago. Second, evolution is not a religion. It's a theory/law. Like Darwinism or gravity.

You missed my point entirely(again), It tells how we where created and some people don't want there kids tought this in school, therefore to be fair, rather there wrong or not everthing should be tought in school.

Evolution (or it with any other theory aside from big bang) is not true because you can't get something from nothing.

Yet you believe an omnipotent being created it all from nothing.

Yes, because he is all powerfull, How is beyond are understanding. otherwise the Bible would have said something.

The belief of Christianity will exclude all other religions: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6

So, in other words, according to you, all other religions and their various saviours are incorrect and inferior. Thanks. You have just made my point for me.

I don't like to use the term "inferior", but let me put it this way, there not of God.

Just as not every kind of medicine can heal a particular life-threatening disease, so, not every religion can save a soul from hell.

But Christianity can, according to you? And since when is there a communal hell of all faiths. The notion is ridiculous. Very, VERY few religions even acknowledge other religions, so the notion that they share the same afterlife is absurd.

Sort of,

Christanty says Jesus, but only Jesus can save you, Christanty can't.

The Notion that they share the same afterlife is saved or unsaved.

i have no interest in debating

LOL then don't hang out in debateing threads.

or even hearing the means you convert.

They where explanations of things, not "means to convert" i might add, that convert means to Convert to Jesus not convert to one's belief(i think)

Here's a tip for you, when debating the existence/validity of God with an atheist, quoting the bible is not a good idea.

Heres a tip for you, don't ask questions and you won't get answers.

i was just trying to make things a little clearer when i quoted the Bible. and made that statement.

I do not. And I never said that I did.

Ok my mistake, but any theory aside from a God as i first pointed out basicly says you come from nothing.

[Acriku]

So you believe that God exists because of a few verses (or many) that can fit into your current life? Let's take them one by one to get a better understanding.

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. - Job 26:7

Hmm from this is seems the Earth is straight up, which is isn't. It seems that the Earth is just floating around with nothing attached to it, but there is - gravity. The gravity pull of the sun is what "hangeth" the earth. So far this has shown me nothing.

Nahum 2:3

The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet: the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken.

Air Pollution has killed most of the fir trees in the forests. Mostly Pines and fir trees.

You got air pollution from that? This is also taken out of context, so a different meaning might be brought forth if taken in context. Anything out of context can mean anything, but still does not "prophesize" anything, just picking something out of our society and fitting it with that. LIke Nostradamus' quatrains.

Nahum 2:4

The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.

Sounds a lot like a car.

Sounds like a car? Sounds like a chariot race to me.

Israel is a living fulfillment of God's prophecy. They were scattered in A.D. 70 and returned in A.D. 1948.

You can take any prophesy and work hard to make it true, and it would be in your power, but that doesn't mean they truthfully prophesized it, they just made prophesy and you decided to fulfill it.

Simple, because we are no longer perfect and Sin needs a payment.

How can something imperfect come from something perfect? Once perfect always perfect.

Well, God can do anything. but he did make us perfect and we blew it over a temptation.

Oh yes anything can be explained because simply put God can do anything. And we didn't blow anything. God was stupid enough to put those trees within easy grasp of the two, and let Satan slip into the gates, and talk with Eve "behind God's back" contradicting that he is everywhere everytime. He let them do it, he tempted them to do it, and he didn't take any precautionary measures to keep them from doing it except a stern command.

You missed my point entirely(again), It tells how we where created and some people don't want there kids tought this in school, therefore to be fair, rather there wrong or not everthing should be tought in school.

It does not tell how we were created. So tell me again why do people not want their kids to be taught how their species gradually developed? To me our past is fascinating, although we are nothing special, the same adaptive radiation involved, the same "bushes," the same way nature does anything else. But what led to our intelligence was the movement of the spine from the back of the head to the bottom allowing bipedal movement, letting the hands free to use tools, etc. Wonderful no?

I don't like to use the term "inferior", but let me put it this way, there not of God.

As emprworm puts it, imperfection will always be inferior to perfection (I think he said this or something like this), so if you become perfect through Jesus you are then superior. Don't you feel super?

Ok my mistake, but any theory aside from a God as i first pointed out basicly says you come from nothing.

Check out emprworm's 3 options if you want another possibility of how we came to be.

[sneezer3]

So you believe that God exists because of a few verses (or many) that can fit into your current life? Let's take them one by one to get a better understanding.

You mean for a better of misunderstanding

You see Acriku- what it all comes down too is rather you belive it or not, Just like there where some that din't belive it then.

but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he ( Abraham ) said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead

If you can't accept the Bible as is, then you can't accept it evedence or no evedence.

And last but not least, if God went around everwhere doing amazing things in plan sight that is impossable for any humen to do, do you think it would take much faith to belive in God?

If the Bible was wrong in all other areas, it got one thing right. there are some that belive and some that don't.

You got air pollution from that? This is also taken out of context, so a different meaning might be brought forth if taken in context. Anything out of context can mean anything, but still does not "prophesize" anything, just picking something out of our society and fitting it with that. LIke Nostradamus' quatrains.

It is not takeing it out of context, if you was reading more carefully then you saw "in the day of his preparation,".

Sounds like a car? Sounds like a chariot race to me.

they din't have streets back then, i don't even think that was a word.

You can take any prophesy and work hard to make it true, and it would be in your power, but that doesn't mean they truthfully prophesized it, they just made prophesy and you decided to fulfill it.

If you "prophesized" something, then you said that it will happen, if it happens then its true. you din't "decide to fullfill it" it happend as is, i might add he said the AntiChrist would come in 2000 and look at the date, lol.

How can something imperfect come from something perfect? Once perfect always perfect.

If your not a robot, and can actully make a choice between Good and Evil and have a free will then no.

Hmm from this is seems the Earth is straight up, which is isn't. It seems that the Earth is just floating around with nothing attached to it, but there is - gravity. The gravity pull of the sun is what "hangeth" the earth. So far this has shown me nothing.

it has shown you that there is science in a book written that long ago, that is if you'd quit being arrengent and closed-minded and would poke your head out ever once in a while. and get out of that "i'm going to belive what i'm going to belive regardles" attuitde.(forgive harsh languege) But i can't help you untill you elemenate that same thick-headed thump in your brain that reilgus people have, that accepts what they have already been tought. and that is slightly inpplyed though peer-pressure at school. it is easy to deny some text from some dude you never even meet or seen in real-life on dune2k wrote. but untill you can elementate that i can't help your "evolved" since of nature.

It does not tell how we were created. So tell me again why do people not want their kids to be taught how their species gradually developed? To me our past is fascinating, although we are nothing special, the same adaptive radiation involved, the same "bushes," the same way nature does anything else. But what led to our intelligence was the movement of the spine from the back of the head to the bottom allowing bipedal movement, letting the hands free to use tools, etc. Wonderful no?

It clearly tells us if you'd read it,

There are buddests out there, There are mormens Cathlics Jehoves Wittnes, and some don't belive that and actully belive there is a God(s)(no matter which one)and want there kids tought accordingly, For one thing it would save a bunch of arugements, and debates, some want there kids tought what they where. and a lot of people (includeing myself) don't like it when you have to be taxed a bunch just to go to another School which don't teach Evoultion. which i might add has never been proven, i don't mind that being tought, i just mind everthing else not beeing tought. and some is done by pure pressure.

Check out emprworm's 3 options if you want another possibility of how we came to be.

Already did, it needs a cause which that is unable to explan.

and let Satan slip into the gates, and talk with Eve "behind God's back" contradicting that he is everywhere everytime. He let them do it, he tempted them to do it, and he didn't take any precautionary measures to keep them from doing it except a stern command.

He knew it but he wanted to let us pick between good and Evil. he made it clear, and he wanted us to have a free-will.

What it all comes down too is rather you belive or not.

[Acriku]

Oh boy it has been a while for this :D

You see Acriku- what it all comes down too is rather you belive it or not, Just like there where some that din't belive it then.

So now there is no such thing as an agnostic? People who find no answer either way, that they don't know either way. They are the gray, so it doesn't come down to black and white.

but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he ( Abraham ) said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead

If you can't accept the Bible as is, then you can't accept it evedence or no evedence.

And last but not least, if God went around everwhere doing amazing things in plan sight that is impossable for any humen to do, do you think it would take much faith to belive in God?

If the Bible was wrong in all other areas, it got one thing right. there are some that belive and some that don't.

I cannot accept the Bible as evidence for anything to prove something in itself, because it is a human invention. If I make a book about flashy pixies, could I use it to prove they exist? No.

It is not takeing it out of context, if you was reading more carefully then you saw "in the day of his preparation,".

I saw that, but that doesn't mean it was in context, I was just saying that I would need to look at verses before and after to get a feel of what they are saying, the meaning of it.

they din't have streets back then, i don't even think that was a word.

They did have streets, the Romans were very good at that. And the bible wasn't written in english, it was translated, and someone translated whatever word for "streets."

If you "prophesized" something, then you said that it will happen, if it happens then its true. you din't "decide to fullfill it" it happend as is, i might add he said the AntiChrist would come in 2000 and look at the date, lol.

If someone else prophesized something at a certain time or place, and I can fulfill it one way or another, it is my choice to make it true. Should I do it, or not. It all comes down to whether I choose to do it. If I don't do it, then it isn't true, or someone else will do it. If I do it, then I chose to do it with my free will and my free will alone. Surely our will and destiny do not bow down to prophesy... Oh and about the antichrist, well is it Bush? Is it Saddam? Is it me? Hehe I don't think it's going to happen in 2000 - which I assume is an estimate.

it has shown you that there is science in a book written that long ago, that is if you'd quit being arrengent and closed-minded and would poke your head out ever once in a while. and get out of that "i'm going to belive what i'm going to belive regardles" attuitde.(forgive harsh languege) But i can't help you untill you elemenate that same thick-headed thump in your brain that reilgus people have, that accepts what they have already been tought. and that is slightly inpplyed though peer-pressure at school. it is easy to deny some text from some dude you never even meet or seen in real-life on dune2k wrote. but untill you can elementate that i can't help your "evolved" since of nature.

It shows that they made a story up, they did not use any scientific methods to determine that, I also might add that it is false even if it was a science (kinda strange for the bible), and yes I am arrogant. Yes I am close-minded. But I can control that, and I am doing that now. I am looking at your "evidence" with skepticism, and am able to see that your "evidence" is not evidence after all. I accept whatever I am taught, until I find a better teaching, then I accept that, and so on continues the cycle. I have not found a better teaching than evolution, so please help me find one. Peer pressure? Towards what?

It clearly tells us if you'd read it,

There are buddests out there, There are mormens Cathlics Jehoves Wittnes, and some don't belive that and actully belive there is a God(s)(no matter which one)and want there kids tought accordingly, For one thing it would save a bunch of arugements, and debates, some want there kids tought what they where. and a lot of people (includeing myself) don't like it when you have to be taxed a bunch just to go to another School which don't teach Evoultion. which i might add has never been proven, i don't mind that being tought, i just mind everthing else not beeing tought. and some is done by pure pressure.

Read what, the bible? The theory of evolution? Sure there are tens of thousands of religions out there, but guess what - no matter what they believe science is still science. If one religion believes that there are no such things as other planets, science will still refute that no matter how much they believe in it. And evolution has been proven many times, but you wouldn't believe me so never mind.

If your not a robot, and can actully make a choice between Good and Evil and have a free will then no.

Really? So imperfection can come from perfection? And where exactly would this imperfection come from, because the whole part is perfect. So where did imperfection come from?

He knew it but he wanted to let us pick between good and Evil. he made it clear, and he wanted us to have a free-will.

But Adam didn't have a sense of good and evil, that was knowledge they did not possess. God did not give it to them, only a stern command, so actually they did have a sense of good and evil - from what God said what was good and evil. Then he turns his back on these perfect beings and lets the devil slip in with a disguise that fooled even god. Figure that one out.

[sneezer3]

i'l reply tommrow.

[emprworm]

I agree with Acriku, humans have such a narrow view on what logic actually is, that to proclaim such things about logic to be truths is arrogant. We can't limit ourselves to three options until science has more fully revealed itself to us.

sorry, innoculator, but you can have religious faith that there are more options and toss out reason and logic, or you can embrace rational thought and recognize that either the universe began or it did not. THere is no other choice in the matter.

The universe had a beginning

The universe did not have a beginning

There is no mystical "third option" to this proposition.

Now, if it had a beginning, it was either caused, or it was not.

something that begins to exist has a cause

something that begins to exist has no cause

it does or it doesn't.

my o my, what religious zealots we have here. lol! You people who think that there are more options to the saying "either acriku exists or he does not exist" really crack me up. the irony is that i wonder if you know I am right deep down but you just are too embarrassed to admit it, or if you really, truly think that there are more options to the proposition "either acriku exists, or he does not exist." lol, it truly is funny.

but you have a right to your faith. we all do. i wont criticize you for that.

[Acriku]

But you do not understand the universe. How does it compare with a single being like myself? It is far different, it may not be a single thing, it may be something we haven't even thought of yet, and that is the beginning of your erroneous "argument."

[emprworm]

But you do not understand the universe. How does it compare with a single being like myself? It is far different, it may not be a single thing, it may be something we haven't even thought of yet, and that is the beginning of your erroneous "argument."

lol. i understand simple logic like the law of non-contradiction. it is much more likely God exists, then to think that one day we may discover that logic doesn't exist after all! rofl.

the neat thing is that i finally found the root of your faith. you have this belief that the logical construct:

"For each thing that exists, it either had a beginning or it did not" may one day be a false statement. To even be "open" to the possibility that the statement ""For each thing that exists, it either had a beginning or it did not" is to be open to the possibility that perhaps logic itself may evolve into something else. lol. that is religion. pure, simple unadulterated religion. obviously you are claiming that "perhaps one day science and reason will no longer exist as it does now". of course such a statement is 100% fully immune to science and reason thereby making your statement fully faith based. and since your statement actually claims that logic itself is invalid, that makes your faith far more profound than mine.

[Acriku]

And I think your putting words in others' mouths is becoming a science for you ;)

You do not know what the law of non-contradiction is bound to, does it include the universe? You don't know, and you speculate.

[emprworm]

and i think you are an expert at dodging me.

i am not talking about the universe.

Let me make a statement.

You respond with true, false. Any other response is dodging me.

STATEMENT: To anything that exists, it either had a beginning, or it did not.

true or false?

[Acriku]

You originally talked about the universe, so I am talking about that, since that was your original argument. The reason I may dodge your questions is because you always write the same things, so I just skip it to avoid reading it over and over, and if you put a question in it that I might skip as well, well point it out and I will address it.

Insufficient data for meaningful answer. ;)

[emprworm]

Dodge. I repeat myself because you avoid them. Professing to be logical and scientific yet cowering from my questions like a scared Ordos gas trooper running from my atreides sniper.

STATEMENT: To anything that exists, it either had a beginning, or it did not.

true or false?

debate cannot continue, unless you are willing to engage it without red herrings.

[Acriku]

Using logic formed on Earth and maybe bound to Earth, I would say for something to exist it should have a beginning or not. But am I right? That would assume logic applies to everything, in which we would not know if it did or not. It seems logical to me, there was no dispute about that, but that doesn't mean in any way that it is correct pertaining to the universe.

[emprworm]

Using logic formed on Earth and maybe bound to Earth, I would say for something to exist it should have a beginning or not. But am I right? That would assume logic applies to everything, in which we would not know if it did or not. It seems logical to me, there was no dispute about that, but that doesn't mean in any way that it is correct pertaining to the universe.

understood. then this is your religion. you are labeling logic as something that applies subjectively, when logic, if it has any meaning whatsoever must be objective.

The following statements are logical statements that have NOTHING to do with human discovery.

Either Supernatural beings exist, or they do not.

Either the universe exists, or it does not.

Either a thing is infinite, or it is not.

Either Acriku exists, or he does not

Either there is life on Mars, or there is not

Either there is a black hole hurling towards earth, or there is not

Either Matrix: Reloaded will be released this year, or

or it will not.

Either the universe is infinite, or it is not.

Either there is more than one universe, or there is not.

Either there is a God defined as the Judeo-Christian God, or there is not.

The moment Acriku (or any other faith-based person) starts inserting things like

"well....that sounds good and true for NOW, but who knows if its true for someone else? Maybe to YOU there is either life on mars or there is not, but to Jack over there perhaps there is both life on mars and no life on mars at the same time. And who's to say jack is wrong? Maybe there IS life on mars and no life on mars!"

Unless we affirm logic, then we no longer have any basis upon which to make a scientific claim. Science Assumes Logic. Without logic, science cannot even begin!

so if you are willing to be "open" to the possibility that logic itself is invalid, then you no longer have any merit to make ANY scientific claim at all. And you are believing in a universe more complex then the one invented by the Greek Gods. You simply cannot deny logic (because to do so requires logic and this is what you are trying to do). Challenging any of those statements above is an act of religious faith no different than Taoism, pantheism, panentheism or any other religious persuasion. You have no rational merit...no rational reason...zero...zippo....to claim that logic will somehow change over time.

And now, I have one final piece of logic to really throw you for a loop - this is going to make your head spin (and hopefully you will realize the weakness of your position)

Acriku said: "That would assume logic applies to everything, in which we would not know if it did or not."

And now my statement:

Either logic applies to everything, or it does not.

Is that statement true or false, Acriku?

[Acriku]

First off, those analogies (there is either life on mars or not) do not apply to the universe. So I have no idea why you are making them, unless you are trying to sway me by misusing analogies. Your original argument was that the universe fell into three options. You say this is logically sound. But how can you apply reason to what we do not understand? You can create theories, attempting to explain that phenomena, but what you are doing is claiming to be professing the truth and nothing but the truth. Your very argument is built on a shaky foundation.

[emprworm]

First off, those analogies (there is either life on mars or not) do not apply to the universe. So I have no idea why you are making them, unless you are trying to sway me by misusing analogies. Your original argument was that the universe fell into three options. You say this is logically sound. But how can you apply reason to what we do not understand? You can create theories, attempting to explain that phenomena, but what you are doing is claiming to be professing the truth and nothing but the truth. Your very argument is built on a shaky foundation.

they are not analogies. you are saying that logic may not apply to everything.

When I say "Either logic applies to everything, or it does not."

And you say that "something may not be logical" then you are STILL not invalidating my statement. The moment you show something illogical, then my statement still stands because it says that either everything is, or isn't.

Why do you keep making this distinciton regarding the universe as some kind of mystical exception to everything? Logic is simply logic.

"Either there was a big bang, or there was not."

There is no exception to logic regarding the big bang, so why do you keep making one?

Either the universe had a beginning, or it did not!!!

this statement is INESCAPABLE. That you are even trying to escape it tells me that you have some real faith issues.

Either the universe had a beginning, or it did not!

thats all there is too it. Why do you avoid this? There is no other option. There is no way you can make that statement false. it is impossible...totally, 100% IMPOSSIBLE. There is a greater chance that an invisible sky pixie exists then there is that you can make that statement false.

[Acriku]

Emprworm, you are arguing something else, I am arguing the three options you said earlier, not whether or not the universe had a beginning or not (which I also said earlier that it seemed to me logically sound). So what's the ruffled panties all about?

[emprworm]

lol, acriku. now you are conceding my argument.

"Either the universe had a beginning or it did not"

TRANSLATES TO:

1. The universe began to exist

2. The universe has always existed

what part of that translation do you not understand?

[sneezer3]

If someone else prophesized something at a certain time or place, and I can fulfill it one way or another, it is my choice to make it true. Should I do it, or not. It all comes down to whether I choose to do it. If I don't do it, then it isn't true, or someone else will do it. If I do it, then I chose to do it with my free will and my free will alone. Surely our will and destiny do not bow down to prophesy... Oh and about the antichrist, well is it Bush? Is it Saddam? Is it me? Hehe I don't think it's going to happen in 2000 - which I assume is an estimate.

No.

If i say something will happen, and it happends. did you make it happen? Or did you just look at it when it happend?

lol c'mon you don't make stuff happen, its just when you look at it carefully it not.

As for the AntiChrist, i don't belive thar prediction, can't say you blame me? lol.

So now there is no such thing as an agnostic? People who find no answer either way, that they don't know either way. They are the gray, so it doesn't come down to black and white.

You get gray when black and white mix, i belive that there is no gray whatsoever. either something is right or it is wrong.

I cannot accept the Bible as evidence for anything to prove something in itself, because it is a human invention. If I make a book about flashy pixies, could I use it to prove they exist? No.

That is your choice, The Bible has been proven accuret Histoicly, Georaghicly, Astornomicly, and in some some areas recently before science even got there

Read what, the bible? The theory of evolution? Sure there are tens of thousands of religions out there, but guess what - no matter what they believe science is still science. If one religion believes that there are no such things as other planets, science will still refute that no matter how much they believe in it. And evolution has been proven many times, but you wouldn't believe me so never mind.

It should not be tought in there simply because there are many views on how we came to be, and Mico-evolution has never been proven, if you have evedence i must have missed what you said. so i'm all ears.

It shows that they made a story up, they did not use any scientific methods to determine that, I also might add that it is false even if it was a science (kinda strange for the bible),

It IS science, although not directly, them not useing any methods proves my point even more.

Really? So imperfection can come from perfection? And where exactly would this imperfection come from, because the whole part is perfect. So where did imperfection come from?

Overall from Saten who had pride and tryed to overthow God.

Yes it can, if the perfect person has a choice.

from what God said what was good and evil. Then he turns his back on these perfect beings and lets the devil slip in with a disguise that fooled even god. Figure that one out

I'm guessing your either assumeing hat or someone told you, either way its not true.

First off, he did not fool God, God knows everthing therefore he cannot be fooled.

Second off, they din't have knowledge of it, but they still disobayed God,

[Acriku]

If you say something will happen, and I did it, was I bound by your prophesy or did I have free will?

You get gray when black and white mix, i belive that there is no gray whatsoever. either something is right or it is wrong.

So what is an agnostic, pink?

That is your choice, The Bible has been proven accuret Histoicly, Georaghicly, Astornomicly, and in some some areas recently before science even got there

It has not been proven, certain things within the bible were accurate, but that has no bearing on any other things in the bible. I can make a book about a pixie wearing a tutu that lived in the times of Julius Caesar, and include that he conquered Gaul. Does that prove anything about a pixie?

It should not be tought in there simply because there are many views on how we came to be, and Mico-evolution has never been proven, if you have evedence i must have missed what you said. so i'm all ears.

But evolution is not a view, it's a fact. A god that created earth is a view, but evolution is a proven fact. Microevolution has been proven, even tma and emprworm says so.

It IS science, although not directly, them not useing any methods proves my point even more.

The bible, science? Don't make me laugh. Too late I guess.

Overall from Saten who had pride and tryed to overthow God.

Yes it can, if the perfect person has a choice.

What makes you think so?

I'm guessing your either assumeing hat or someone told you, either way its not true.

First off, he did not fool God, God knows everthing therefore he cannot be fooled.

Second off, they din't have knowledge of it, but they still disobayed God,

If he knows everything, then he knew Satan was trying to coerse Eve into taking the fruit. He let it happen. Then he banished them for something he let happen. Loving god eh?

[sneezer3]

If you say something will happen, and I did it, was I bound by your prophesy or did I have free will?

no, it happend rather you belive it or not. it was correct. thats like saying "if you add a math problem it is up to me to fullfill it and make it equel what it is."

So what is an agnostic, pink?

Actully blue. ;D

Just kiding of course, i thought i made that clear.

It has not been proven, certain things within the bible were accurate, but that has no bearing on any other things in the bible. I can make a book about a pixie wearing a tutu that lived in the times of Julius Caesar, and include that he conquered Gaul. Does that prove anything about a pixie?

A Large amount of stuff has been proven, None of it has ever been disproven,

But evolution is not a view, it's a fact. A god that created earth is a view, but evolution is a proven fact. Microevolution has been proven, even tma and emprworm says so.

Then state your evedence, where it has been proven, and how the time etc. and state what they found.

What makes you think so?

Lets just say i have read it alot.

If he knows everything, then he knew Satan was trying to coerse Eve into taking the fruit. He let it happen. Then he banished them for something he let happen. Loving god eh?

He let them have a choice, would you rather be a mindles robot made to serve God, or a bunch of people with a free-will that is a person is sent to hell forever if he sin's once?

He was loveing enough to have nails driven in his hands, i'd call that loveing. I know i wouldn't do that for someone, would you go into a town you knew people would kill you if you went?

[Acriku]

no, it happend rather you belive it or not. it was correct. thats like saying "if you add a math problem it is up to me to fullfill it and make it equel what it is."

Let's pretend a little. I make a prophecy that on February 5, 2003, on the dune2k forums, one in charge will shut the cry of one spectator. And tomorrow, God sees my prophecy and decides to fulfill it and deletes every post of emprworm, the spectator. Does that make me a prophet? If not, what does make one a prophet, if it isn't having a prophecy fulfilled?

A Large amount of stuff has been proven, None of it has ever been disproven,

Really? What large amount of stuff (I assume "large" is the majority of the context, or perhaps a big chunk?) has been proven?

Then state your evedence, where it has been proven, and how the time etc. and state what they found.

Do I really have to show evidence for every person who says otherwise, when people here at the forums and with your beliefs even agree that microevolution has been proven? But let's just say it has been proven in laboratories, over and over again.

He let them have a choice, would you rather be a mindles robot made to serve God, or a bunch of people with a free-will that is a person is sent to hell forever if he sin's once?

He was loveing enough to have nails driven in his hands, i'd call that loveing. I know i wouldn't do that for someone, would you go into a town you knew people would kill you if you went?

For a perfect person to be suaded by a talking snake and then succumb to its words and disobey GOD'S words, that doesn't convince me they are perfect. A perfect being that is tricked? Please. And how do you know they even knew a heaven or hell existed? Does it say so in the bible that god explained to them the concept of heaven and hell, and the sinning would lead them to either or?

And completely forgetting...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ introduces 29 "evidences" for macroevolution showing that it does in fact happen, but what comes into question is how it happens, the mechanisms of evolution.