Monothiesm and the Great Greek Thinkers

[TMA_1]

Chapter XVIII.-Testimony of Sophocles.

And if it is needful that we add testimonies concerning one God, even from the dramatists, hear even Sophocles speaking thus:-

"There is one God, in truth there is but one,

Who made the heavens and the broad earth beneath,

The glancing waves of ocean and the winds

But many of us mortals err in heart,

And set up for a solace in our woes

Images of the gods in stone and wood,

Or figures carved in brass or ivory,

And, furnishing for these our handiworks,

Both sacrifice and rite magnificent,

We think that thus we do a pious work."

Thus, then, Sophocles.

Chapter XIX.-Testimony of Pythagoras.

And Pythagoras, son of Mnesarchus, who expounded the doctrines of his own philosophy, mystically by means of symbols, as those who have written his life show, himself seems to have entertained thoughts about the unity of God not unworthy of his foreign residence in Egypt. For when he says that unity is the first principle of all things, and that it is the cause of all good, he teaches by an allegory that God is one, and alone. And that this is so, is evident from his saying that unity and one differ widely from one another. For he says that unity belongs to the class of things perceived by the mind, but that one belongs to numbers. And if you desire to see a clearer proof of the opinion of Pythagoras concerning one God, hear his own opinion, for he spoke as follows: "God is one; and He Himself does not, as some suppose, exist outside the world, but in it, He being wholly present in the whole circle, and beholding all generations; being the regulating ingredient of all the ages, and the administrator of His own powers and works, the first principle of all things, the light of heaven, and Father of all, the intelligence and animating soul of the universe, the movement of all orbits." Thus, then, Pythagoras.

Chapter XX.-Testimony of Plato.

But Plato, though he accepted, as is likely, the doctrine of Moses and the other prophets regarding one only God, which he learned while in Egypt, yet fearing, on account of what had befallen Socrates, lest he also should raise up some Anytus or Meletus against himself, who should accuse him before the Athenians, and say, "Plato is doing harm, and making himself mischievously busy, not acknowledging the godsrecognised by the state; "in fear of the hemlock-juice, contrives an elaborate and ambiguous discourse concerning the gods, furnishing by his treatise gods to those who wish them, and none for those who are differently disposed, as may readily be seen from his own statements. For when he has laid down that everything that is made is mortal, he afterwards says that the gods were made. If, then, he would have God and matter to be the origin of all things, manifestly it is inevitably necessary to say that the gods were made of matter; but if of matter, out of which he said that evil also had its origin, he leaves right-thinking persons to consider what kind of beings the gods should be thought who are produced out of matter. For, for this very reason did he say that matter was eternal, that he might not seem to say that God is the creator of evil. And regarding the gods who were made by God, there is no doubt he said this: "Gods of gods, of whom I am the creator." And he manifestly held the correct opinion concerning the really existing God. For having heard in Egypt that God had said to Moses, when He was about to send him to the Hebrews, "I am that I am," he understood that God had not mentioned to him His own proper name.

Chapter XXIV.-Agreement of Plato and Homer.

How, then, does Plato banish Homer from his republic, since, in the embassy to Achilles, he represents Phoenix as saying to Achilles, "Even the gods themselves are not inflexible," though Homer said this not of the king and Platonic maker of the gods, but of some of the multitude whom the Greeks esteem as gods, as one can gather from Plato's saying, "gods of gods? "For Homer, by that golden chain, refers all power and might to the one highest God. And the rest of the gods, he said, were so far distant from his divinity, that he thought fit to name them even along with men. At least he introduces Ulysses saying of Hector to Achilles, "He is raging terribly, trusting in Zeus, and values neither men nor gods." In this passage Homer seems to me without doubt to have learnt in Egypt, like Plato, concerning the one God, and plainly and openly to declare this, that he who trusts in the really existent God makes no account of those that do not exist. For thus the poet, in another passage, and employing another but equivalent word, to wit, a pronoun, made use of the same participle employed by Plato to designate the really existent God, concerning whom Plato said, "What that is which always exists, and has no birth." For not without a double sense does this expression of Phoenix seem to have been used: "Not even if God Himself were to promise me, that, having burnished off my old age, He should set me forth in the flower of youth." For the pronoun "Himself" signifies the really existing God. For thus, too, the oracle which was given to you concerning the Chaldaeans and Hebrews signifies. For when some one inquired what men had ever lived godly, you say the answer was:-

"Only the Chaldaeans and the Hebrews found wisdom,

Worshipping God Himself, the unbegotten King."

I have done extensive research and actually found these epistles written by Justin Martyr, during the late 1st century after christ. I then looked through the footnotes and read the original writings by these men. Men like Sophocles, the famouse playwrite who wrote Antigone and many other beautiful plays, Plato, the greek philospher and follower of Socretese. In his own right a great philospoher of athens. Homer the great historian, who studied the Greeks and their lustrious history. And Pythagoras, the great mathematician. Who worked and made much of our geometry and high mathematics today. These men understood the idea of a great Diety. Many of them could not say it in the open for fear of being branded as athiests of the state. Not believing in the greek pantheon. Socretese himself died because of his views on the Gods and Goddess'. Justin Martyr was originally a greek philosopher who studied the sciences and religion of hellenistic ideals. He originally was a platonist who accepted the dogma of the time. He converted though and used his reason in order to understand christ and preach him. This was absolutely amazing for me to see that even Greek thinkers of greatness understood a one true God.

For information on Justin, go to this site. It has his and other early church Fathers epistles and thoughts.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/

To go directly to Justin Martyr's works go here.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-44.htm#P3569_611625

[TMA_1]

I will add more over time. what are your guy's opinions on this? I find it amazing and glorious that even the intellectuals of the time understood God Conciousness.

[sonic-worm]

Sorry i don't have any kind of opinion...er... it's all greek to me

[ordos45]

I personally think this is interesting. Who knew Pythagorus, bane of my mathematical life, was a monotheist? Still, interesting indeed...going to click on the first link now.

[TMA_1]

argh this is probably the neatest stuff I have found and nobody is checking it out. odd.lol

[TMA_1]

Here are some other works by the Sibyl, a line of continuing prophetess' who were highly respected by the many greek nation states. Also it brings up the monothiesm of Orphius, who wouldnt be expected to be a monothiest. He was one of the first great writers on the theology of the Greecian Gods and Goddess. Also more info on Plato and his beliefs on the issue.

Chapter XVI.-Testimony of the Sibyl.

We must also mention what the ancient and exceedingly remote Sibyl, whom Plato and Aristophanes, and others besides, mention as a prophetess, taught you in her oracular verses concerning one only God. And she speaks thus:-

"There is one only unbegotten God,

Omnipotent, invisible, most high,

All-seeing, but Himself seen by no flesh."

Then elsewhere thus:-

"But we have strayed from the Immortal's ways,

And worship with a dull and senseless mind

Idols, the workmanship of our own hands,

And images and figures of dead men."

And again somewhere else:-

"Blessed shall be those men upon the earth

Who shall love the great God before all else,

Blessing Him when they eat and when they drink;

Trusting it, this their piety alone.

Who shall abjure all shrines which they may see,

All altars and vain figures of dumb stones,

Worthless and stained with blood of Chapter XVI.-Testimony of the Sibyl.

We must also mention what the ancient and exceedingly remote Sibyl, whom Plato and Aristophanes, and others besides, mention as a prophetess, taught you in her oracular verses concerning one only God. And she speaks thus:-

"There is one only unbegotten God,

Omnipotent, invisible, most high,

All-seeing, but Himself seen by no flesh."

Then elsewhere thus:-

"But we have strayed from the Immortal's ways,

And worship with a dull and senseless mind

Idols, the workmanship of our own hands,

And images and figures of dead men."

And again somewhere else:-

"Blessed shall be those men upon the earth

Who shall love the great God before all else,

Blessing Him when they eat and when they drink;

Trusting it, this their piety alone.

Who shall abjure all shrines which they may see,

All altars and vain figures of dumb stones,

Worthless and stained with blood of animals,

And sacrifice of the four-fooled tribes,

Beholding the great glory of One God."

These are the Sibyl's words.

animals,

And sacrifice of the four-fooled tribes,

Beholding the great glory of One God."

These are the Sibyl's words.

Chapter XV.-Testimony of Orpheus to Monotheism.

At all events, we must remind you what Orpheus, who was, as one might say, your first teacher of polytheism, latterly addressed to his son Musaeus, and to the other legitimate auditors, concerning the one and only God.And he spoke thus:-

"I speak to those who lawfully may hear:

All others, ye profane, now close the doors,

And, O Musaeus! hearken thou to me,

Who offspring art of the light-bringing moon:

The words I utter now are true indeed;

And if thou former thoughts of mine hast seen,

Let them not rob thee of the blessed life,

But rather turn the depths of thine own heart

Unto the place where light and knowledge dwell.

Take thou the word divine to guide thy steps,

And walking well in the straight certain path,

Look to the one and universal King-

One, self-begotten, and the only One,

Of whom all things and we ourselves are sprung.

All things are open to His piercing gaze,

While He Himself is still invisible.

Present in all His works, though still unseen,

He gives to mortals evil out of good,

Sending both chilling wars and tearful griefs;

And other than the great King there is none.

The clouds for ever settle round His throne,

And mortal eyeballs in mere mortal eyes

Are weak, to see Jove reigning over all.

He sits established in the brazen heavens

Upon His golden throne; under His feet

He treads the earth, and stretches His right hand

To all the ends of ocean, and around

Tremble the mountain ranges and the streams,

The depths, too, of the blue and hoary sea."

And again, in some other place he says:-

"There is one Zeus alone, one sun, one hell,

One Bacchus; and in all things but one God;

Nor of all these as diverse let me speak."

And when he swears he says:-

"Now I adjure thee by the highest heaven,

The work of the great God, the only wise;

And I adjure thee by the Father's voice.

Which first He uttered when He stablished

The whole world by His counsel."

Chapter XXI.-The Namelessness of God.

For God cannot be called by any proper name, for names are given to mark out and distinguish their subject-matters, because these are many and diverse; but neither did any one exist before God who could give Him a name, nor did He Himself think it fight to name Himself, seeing that He is one and unique, as He Himself also by His own prophets testifies, when He says, "I God am the first," and after this, "And beside me there is no other God." On this account, then, as I before said, God did not, when He sent Moses to the Hebrews, mention any name, but by a participle He mystically teaches them that He is the one and only God. "For," says He; "I am the Being; "manifestly contrasting Himself, "the Being," with those who are not, that those who had hitherto been deceived might see that they were attaching themselves, not to beings, but to those who had no being. Since, therefore, God knew that the first men remembered the old delusion of their forefathers, whereby the misanthropic demon contrived to deceive them when he said to them, "If ye obey me in transgressing the commandment of God, ye shall be as gods," calling those gods which had no being, in order that men, supposing that there were other gods in existence, might believe that they themselves could become gods. On this account He said to Moses, "I am the Being," that by the participle "being" He might teach the difference between God who is and those who are not. Men, therefore, having been duped by the deceiving demon, and having dared to disobey God, were cast out of Paradise, remembering the name of gods, but no longer being taught by God that there are no other gods. For it was not just that they who did not keep the first commandment, which it was easy to keep, should any longer be taught, but should rather be driven to just punishment. Being therefore banished from Paradise, and thinking that they were expelled on account of their disobedience only, not knowing that it was also because they had believed in the existence of gods which did not exist, they gave the name of gods even to the men who were afterwards born of themselves. This first false fancy, therefore, concerning gods, had its origin with the father of lies. God, therefore, knowing that the false opinion about the plurality of gods was burdening the soul of man like some disease, and wishing to remove and eradicate it, appeared first to Moses, and said to him, "I am He who is." For it was necessary, I think, that he who was to be the ruler and leader of the Hebrew people should first of all know the living God. Wherefore, having appeared to him first, as it was possible for God to appear to a man, He said to him, "I am He who is; "then, being about to send him to the Hebrews, He further orders him to say, "He who is hath sent me to you."

Chapter XXV.-Plato's Knowledge of God's Eternity.

How, then, does Plato blame Homer for saying that the gods are not inflexible, although, as is obvious from the expressions used, Homer said this for a useful purpose? For it is the property of those who expect to obtain mercy by prayer and sacrifices, to cease from and repent of their sins. For those who think that the Deity is inflexible, are by no means moved to abandon their sins, since they suppose that they will derive no benefit from repentance. How, then, does Plato the philosopher condemn the poet Homer for saying, "Even the gods themselves are not inflexible," and yet himself represent the maker of the gods as so easily turned, that he sometimes declares the gods to be mortal, and at other times declares the same to be immortal? And not only concerning them, but also concerning matter, from which, as he says, it is necessary that the created gods have been produced, he sometimes says that it is uncreated, and at other times that it is created; and yet he does not see that he himself, when he says that the maker of the gods is so easily turned, is convicted of having fallen into the very errors for which he blames Homer, though Homer said the very opposite concerning the maker of the gods. For he said that he spoke thus of himself:-

"For ne'er my promise shall deceive, or fail,

Or be recall'd, if with a nod confirm'd."

But Plato, as it seems, unwillingly entered not these strange dissertations concerning the gods, for he feared those who were attached to polytheism. And whatever he thinks fit to tell of all that he had learned from Moses and the prophets concerning one God, he preferred delivering in a mystical style, so that those who desired to be worshippers of God might have an inkling of his own opinion. For being charmed with that saying of God to Moses, "I am the really existing," and accepting with a great deal of thought the brief participial expression, he understood that God desired to signify to Moses His eternity, and therefore said, "I am the really existing; "for this word "existing" expresses not one time only, but the three-the past, the present, and the future. For when Plato says, "and which never really is," he uses the verb "is" of time indefinite. For the word "never" is not spoken, as some suppose, of the past, but of the future time. And this has been accurately understood even by profane writers. And therefore, when Plato wished, as it were, to interpret to the uninitiated what had been mystically expressed by the participle concerning the eternity of God, he employed the following language: "God indeed, as the old tradition runs, includes the beginning, and end, and middle of all things." In this sentence he plainly and obviously names the law of Moses "the old tradition," fearing, through dread of the hemlock-cup, to mention the name of Moses; for he understood that the teaching of the man was hateful to the Greeks; and he clearly enough indicates Moses by the antiquity of the tradition. And we have sufficiently proved from Diodorus and the rest of the historians, in the foregoing chapters, that the law of Moses is not only old, but even the first. For Diodorus says that he was the first of all lawgivers; the letters which belong to the Greeks, and which they employed in the writing of their histories, having not yet been discovered

Here is another point out of Monotheism of the Greeks, but by Theophilus, an early church father. I will explain more about him below. This is facinating. the sybil gave prophesy about the evil of man to the "Unbegotten God".

Chapter XXXVI.-Prophecies of the Sibyl.

And the Sibyl, who was a prophetess among the Greeks and the other nations, in the beginning of her prophecy, reproaches the race of men, saying:-

"How are ye still so quickly lifted up,

And how so thoughtless of the end of life,

Ye mortal men of flesh, who are but nought?

Do ye not tremble, nor fear God most high?

Your Overseer, the Knower, Seer of all,

Who ever keeps those whom His hand first made,

Puts His sweet Spirit into all His works,

And gives Him for a guide to mortal men.

There is one only uncreated God,

Who reigns alone, all-powerful very great,

From whom is nothing hid. He sees all things,

Himself unseen by any mortal eye.

Can mortal man see the immortal God,

Or fleshly eyes, which Shun the noontide beams,

Look upon Him who dwells beyond the heavens?

Worship Him then, the self-existent God,

The unbegotten Ruler of the world,

Who only was from everlasting time,

And shall to everlasting still abide.

Of evil counsels ye shall reap the fruit,

Because ye have not honoured the true God,

Nor offered to Him sacred hecatombs.

To those who dwell in Hades ye make gifts,

And unto demons offer sacrifice.

In madness and in pride ye have your walk;

And leaving the right way, ye wander wide,

And lose yourselves in pitfalls and in thorns.

Why do ye wander thus, O foolish men?

Cease your vain wanderings in the black, dark night;

Why follow darkness and perpetual gloom

When, see, there shines for you the blessed light?

Lo, He is clear-in Him there is no spot.

Turn, then, from darkness, and behold the day;

Be wise, and treasure wisdom in your breasts.

There is one God who sends the winds and rains,

The earthquakes, and the lightnings, and the plagues,

The famines, and the snow-storms, and the ice,

And all the woes that visit our sad race.

Nor these alone, but all things else He gives,

Ruling omnipotent in heaven and earth,

And self-existent from eternity."

And regarding those [gods] that axe said to have been born, she said:-

"If all things that are born must also die,

"God cannot be produced by mortal man.

But there is only Once, the All-Supreme,

Who made the heavens, with all their starry host,

The sun and moon; likewise the fruitful earth,

With all the waves of ocean, and the hills,

The fountains, and the ever flowing streams;

He also made the countless multitude

Of ocean creatures, and He keeps alive

All creeping things, both of the earth and sea;

And all the tuneful choir of birds He made,

Which cleave the air with wings, and with shrill pipe

Trill forth at morn their tender, clear-voiced song.

Within the deep glades of the hills He placed

A savage race of beasts; and unto men

He made all cattle subject, making man

The God-formed image, ruler over all,

And putting in subjection to his sway

Things many and incomprehensible.

For who of mortals can know all these things?

He only knows who made them at the first,

He the Creator, incorruptible,

Who dwells in upper air eternally;

Who proffers to the good most rich rewards,

And against evil and unrighteous men

Rouses revenge, and wrath, and bloody wars,

And pestilence, and many a tearful grief.

O man exalted vainly-say why thus

Hast thou so utterly destroyed thyself?

Have ye no shame worshipping beasts for gods?

And to believe the gods should steal your beasts,

Or that they need your vessels-is it not

Frenzy's most profitless and foolish thought?

Instead of dwelling in the golden heavens,

Ye see your gods become the prey of worms,

And hosts of creatures noisome and unclean.

O fools! ye worship serpents, dogs, and cats,

Birds, and the creeping things of earth and sea,

Images made with hands, statues of stone,

And heaps of rubbish by the wayside placed.

All these, and many more vain things, ye serve,

Worshipping things disgraceful even to name:

These are the gods who lead vain men astray,

From whose mouth streams of deadly poison flow.

But unto Him in whom alone is life,

Life, and undying, everlasting light;

Who pours into man's cup of life a

Sweeter than sweetest honey to his taste,-

Unto Him bow the head, to Him alone,

And walk in ways of everlasting peace.

Forsaking Him, ye all have turned aside,

And, in your raving folly, drained the cup

Of justice quite unmixed, pure, mastering, strong;

And ye will not again be sober men,

Ye will not come unto a sober mind,

And know your God and King, who looks on all:

Therefore, upon you burning fire shall come,

And ever ye shall daily burn in flames,

Ashamed for ever of your useless gods.

But those who worship the eternal God,

They shall inherit everlasting life,

Inhabiting the blooming realms of bliss,

And feasting on sweet food from starry heaven."

That these things are true, and useful, and just, and profitable to all men, is obvious. Even the poets have spoken of the punishments of the wicked.

This is just some neat stuff from one of my favorite early church Fathers. His name was Theophilus. He tought on the nature of God and many other things. A great pastor who was known to many churches in greece and asia minor. I just like this info about the nature of God so I added it in here.

Chapter III.-Nature of God.

You will say, then, to me, "Do you, who see God, explain to me the appearance of God." Hear, O man. The appearance of God is ineffable and indescribable, and cannot be seen by eyes of flesh. For in glory He is incomprehensible, in greatness unfathomable, in height inconceivable, in power incomparable, in wisdom unrivalled, in goodness inimitable, in kindness unutterable. For if I say He is Light, I name but His own work; if I call Him Word, I name but His sovereignty; if I call Him Mind, I speak but of His wisdom; if I say He is Spirit, I speak of His breath; if I call Him Wisdom, I speak of His offspring; if I call Him Strength, I speak of His sway; if I call Him Power, I am mentioning His activity; if Providence, I but mention His goodness; if I call Him Kingdom, I but mention His glory; if I call Him Lord, I mention His being judge; if I call Him Judge, I speak of Him as being just; if I call Him Father, I speak of all things as being from Him; if I call Him Fire, I but mention His anger. You will say, then, to me, "Is God angry? "Yes; He is angry with those who act wickedly, but He is good, and kind, and merciful, to those who love and fear Him; for He is a chastener of the godly, and father of the righteous; but he is a judge and punisher of the impious.

Chapter IV.-Attributes of God.

And He is without beginning, because He is unbegotten; and He is unchangeable, because He is immortal. And he is called God [Qeo/j] on account of His having placed [teqeike/nai] all things on security afforded by Himself; and on account of [qe/ein], forqe/ein means running, and moving, and being active, and nourishing, and foreseeing, and governing, and making all things alive. But he is Lord, because He rules over the universe; Father, because he is before all things; Fashioner and Maker, because He is creator and maker of the universe; the Highest, because of His being above all; and Almighty, because He Himself rules and embraces all. For the heights of heaven, and the depths of the abysses, and the ends of the earth, are in His hand, and there is no place of His rest. For the heavens are His work, the earth is His creation, the sea is His handiwork; man is His formation and His image; sun, moon, and stars are His elements, made for signs, and seasons, and days, and years, that they may serve and be slaves to man; and all things God has made out of things that were not into things that are, in order that through His works His greatness may be known and understood.

[Caid Ivik]

God was I think waiting until we humans will find him. Then he sent Jesus, when we were fully prepared to accept him. Everyone knows that most of greek philosophers where monoteists or at least watching for "real god". Such wise men can't be polytheists.

[Acriku]

I detest that claim Caid.

[rogue1896]

i don't want to get involved in another religious debate here. i'm pretty sure you all know where i stand on these sorts of things.

[Edric O]

I detest that claim Caid.

Why? Are you a polytheist?

Hmmm... interesting stuff, TMA. I certainly didn't know about those people being monotheists. Did they arrive at that belief on their own?

[TMA_1]

well some were monothiests, like socretese and some of the sybils as well as sopheclese and pluto and some others, others just believed in a supreme being that created the gods. The ones that were monotheists seemed to have heard about doctern that was monotheistic and by their own intellectual deduction, saw it as the most logical conclusion. thats what I have come across in my studies.

[Caid Ivik]

So, if they were strict monotheists I can't say (even Socrates gave a sacrifice to Aescelapius before his execution). But most of them were close to it, searching for "prime force", as only rational superbeing.

[Acriku]

Am I a polytheist? No. But being a polytheist has no connection with wisdom, as Caid so boldly claims. That is why I detest it, and it shows Caid's bigotry.

[emprworm]

i don't want to get involved in another religious debate here. i'm pretty sure you all know where i stand on these sorts of things.

lol! then just stay out. ::) the thread is about religion so its natural that a religious debate will ensue. there are plenty of other threads for you to participate in. ;)

[nemafakei]

The links are working slow for me...

"I then looked through the footnotes and read the original writings by these men"

Hm. Sounds very dubious - a christian promoter publishing confessions of monotheism isn't that reliable. I'd have to have read the greek to tell you anything about this (especially the sophocles). And I can't find anything.

[emprworm]

"a christian promoter publishing confessions of monotheism isn't that reliable."

why not? so an atheist is? just who, exactly, is reliable?

[Acriku]

Nobody is reliable enough if they only have their writings. And it's interesting none of the monotheists doubted any of it.

[nemafakei]

"so an atheist is?"

In this context, yes (same for a polytheist), because it is not in the nonmonotheist's interest to publish that info.

[emprworm]

it is not in the atheists interest to publish that info either.

so who, exactly, would ever publish it?

[Acriku]

It wouldn't be in their interest, but if it was true, why wouldn't they write about it?

[nemafakei]

"so who, exactly, would ever publish it?"

Why do I feel I am stating the obvious here...

My point was that the source should not be considered reliable without some further analysis.

[emprworm]

TMA what is your source?

The claim that sophocles is a monothiest is challenged.

i will try to find out with independent research

[Acriku]

He posted sources on his first post...

[emprworm]

i am uncertain about sophocles. it seems he was a priest for Dionysos at one point. though this doesn't mean he wasn't a monotheist at a later time or perhaps he believed that Dionysos was a lone god. I really dont know so I give up :(

[TMA_1]

you have seen my posts. If you read about plato and his ideas on monotheism, you will see that people had to believe in the greek pantheon or other legal pantheons. They couldnt deny their existance. You would be surprised how many people denied in secret the greek Gods. Eventually they became myth even in the hellenistic culture for some people.