zamboe Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Its about to be the 43 year aniversary of the greatest USA agression to an independent country like Cuba. I mean the comercial and financial blockade.I would like to know opinions of you guys that are against such a discriminatory measure against the peaceful and poor Cuba. Cuba has showed and proved to the world it's courage and pride by not accepting impositions of any kind.In the last years the USA has been left alone in it's position (besides Israel and Marshall Islands) there is not really much support at the UN.Since I try to keep it as a sharing of common opinions and not a debate, hell! America (from Canada to Argentina) has been debating this since 1959 !, I ask to all members that are somehow in favor of the blockade (US members mostly I guess) NOT TO POST HERE, thx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nampigai Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 first of all why shouldn't they be allowed to post here?I really don't know what to think of the blokade. I think that at first it was hypocratic as the US and western world had nuclear missiles stationed pointing to Moscow. But thinking of what could have happened I believe it was the best thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zamboe Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 NaM, I was not refering to the missile crisis of the 60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dude_Doc Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Well, I can't see anyone complaining anywhere in the news, so why is this a problem? We should be more concerned about what's going to happen with Iraq and North Korea, heck, if things rules out pretty bad, we will be left with a nuclear war. Oh, what tha hell, better start building a bunker... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordos45 Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 The US Dollar is legal tender in Cuba! We pay millions of dollars a year to keep a base at Guantonomo Bay in Cuba! If you get the right forms from the state department you can go to Cuba and legally spend money there! If you just fly to the bahamas or something and take a ferry over to Cuba you can spend it without the government having any say so...it happens all the time. The United States embargo of Cuba might as well be nonexistent in the major ports! (If you don't believe me, go visit Havanna sometime.)I'm not in favor of the blockade, in fact for all I care they can lift it. It doesn't do too much successfully anyhow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dude_Doc Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 And they say they're communists... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 uhhh the US has a base there. and Cuba gets paid for it. " Guantanamo Bay, a naval base in Cuba which the US leases from the island's communist government....Washington still pays the rent, set a century ago at 2,000 gold coins a year and now worth just over $4,000, even though Mr Castro refuses to cash the cheques. "http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1731704.stmfunny how Cuba just lets the US camp there. We are there not against their will, but according to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zamboe Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 The US Dollar is legal tender in Cuba! We pay millions of dollars a year to keep a base at Guantonomo Bay in Cuba!Wrong.It's not a legal tender, but accepted. Legal means that there would be chance to open saving accounts for Cuban citizens or Companies branches, all the $$$ moves must be in the local currency.Second, you (US tax payers) only pay 3000+ U$D per YEAR, and that's not millions. A different issue is maintenance cost of the military facilities and not even a single dolar of that money is spent in the Cuba's economy since all the goods are bought in the US and shipped to Guantanamo Bay base.If you get the right forms from the state department you can go to Cuba and legally spend money there! If you just fly to the bahamas or something and take a ferry over to Cuba you can spend it without the government having any say so...it happens all the time. The United States embargo of Cuba might as well be nonexistent in the major ports! (If you don't believe me, go visit Havanna sometime.)I'm not in favor of the blockade, in fact for all I care they can lift it. It doesn't do too much successfully anyhow.There are possible ways to skip the blockade, even to US tourist, that proves that the US blockade is not longet supported by the majority of the US population.There is a full embargo in the US major ports, there can be no shipment of any kind to Cuba, unless an special permission is granted based on "national security interest" (what a ridiculous policy) and neither the port can be used for forwarding goods from other ports/countries to any port in Cuba. Therefore the blockade still applies.I haven't been in Havanna yet, but I don't need to go there to be 100% sure about what I am saying.You are wrong ordos54 the blockade *does* much and successfully and limits the development of Cuba, and that is the most repugnant policy that we americans have to see from the US.About the base, that base was given by the Kingdom of Spain to the US as a lease when those islands were under the Spanish flag and control. Therefore all the goverments since the independence of Cuba had to accept that agreement. It was not the actual goverment of Cuba that gave that area to the US, but that's not the main point.The situation of Cuba is quite similar to the Gandhi's fight, he had nothing but the true and his rights, he just waited and had more patiente than it's powerfull oponent, same with Cuba, Cuba will not give up it's resistance to other impositions no matter if it takes other century, it certantly applies "Death before dishonor". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I agree with Zamboe on this. The blocade is unjust and is holding back Cubas development. And why the hell is it in place? Because they don't like communists? I suppose the US does like facists on the other hand, because no embargo was in place when Batista was in office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 i thought Ghandi wanted people out of India because they had physically invaded their land. Refusing to give/trade your stuff to someone else who lives hundreds of miles away on some island is in what way invading them?I choose not to barter with Fred on Ebay. I dont really like Fred very much. My buddies dont barter with Fred either. We just leave Fred alone. If Fred really wants OUR STUFF, then Fred will have to make some changes. If Fred doesn't want to change then fine: ok, no big deal. But he isn't getting any of our stuff. So what is more important to Fred? Our stuff, or Fred's nuiances? Well that is up to Fred. He can decide if he wants our stuff or not. As far as we are conerned, if Fred doesn't want our stuff....O well. Its not like we need HIS stuff. Why should someone therefore say that unless Fred gets our stuff that we are somehow invaders? How could I be called aggressive simply because I dont want to give my stuff to Fred under his terms? It is MY stuff...if he wants it, it will be under my terms. If he doesn't like my terms, then o well...i guess he doesn't get my stuff. That isn't aggression, its simple bartering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 You're not giving him your stuff, but you don't allow me to sell any goods to Fred either, mr. facist lover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zamboe Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 I agree with Zamboe on this. The blocade is unjust and is holding back Cubas development. And why the hell is it in place? Because they don't like communists? I suppose the US does like facists on the other hand, because no embargo was in place when Batista was in office.Because Batista did whatever US wanted.We agree Earthnuker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 You're not giving him your stuff, but you don't allow me to sell any goods to Fred either, mr. facist lover.how? You can trade with him all you want. you are not forced at gunpoint to go by our requests. I dont want to give fred my stuff under his terms unless he makes a comprimise. Fred is stubborn so I tell you and the rest of my friends hey guys, Fred is being really stubborn. I recommend that you dont give your stuff to him either.And then you choose to go with my recommendation...its not like you have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zamboe Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 I choose not to barter with Fred on Ebay. I dont really like Fred very much. My buddies dont barter with Fred either. We just leave Fred alone. If Fred really wants OUR STUFF, then Fred will have to make some changes. If Fred doesn't want to change then fine: ok, no big deal. But he isn't getting any of our stuff. So what is more important to Fred? Our stuff, or Fred's nuiances? Well that is up to Fred. He can decide if he wants our stuff or not. As far as we are conerned, if Fred doesn't want our stuff....O well. Its not like we need HIS stuff. Why should someone therefore say that unless Fred gets our stuff that we are somehow invaders? How could I be called aggressive simply because I dont want to give my stuff to Fred under his terms? It is MY stuff...if he wants it, it will be under my terms. If he doesn't like my terms, then o well...i guess he doesn't get my stuff. That isn't aggression, its simple bartering.OUT STUFF ?. LOL.Hundreds of US companys WANT to make business in Cuba, but they are forbidden to do it, because of the several blockade laws, they want to sell, it's is natural market.Millions of tourist want to go directly from Florida to Cuba, but they can't. It is not that the all the US citizens agree about the political changes in Cuba, they don't care, they just want to travel/make business like with any other country.Cuba thinks different, and that's why it gets that blockade, from the goverment of the so called "freedom beacon" land, as usuall they say one thing but do a different one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 then the US citizens can elect leaders who support the idea to trade under Fred's terms instead of our terms. What an individual company wants is irrelevant, since business cannot be conducted without legal authority anyway. If people do not like the legal authorities, they can elect new leaders to change those laws. The US government is seen as a whole- not as fragmented shards. If the US has a policy that says "our stuff will not go to Fred under Fred's terms, but only under a comprimise that includes our terms" then any individual company's wishes are irrelevant since all legal companies are subordinates to the governing authority and cannot conduct business independently anyway.And, it is worth noting, that if Cuba really wants those US businesses to do business on their soil, then they would make the necessary comprimises needed for that to happen. But I guess they don't want those companies. So no matter how much US companies want to be there, it is irrelevant if Cuba doesn't want them there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilVirus Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Ah, if there's a thing that US govt sucks at especially it would have to be Foreign Relations ::)All the bad relations between US and Cuba are almost completely the fault of US. Fidel Castro at the beginning behaved friendly towards the US, but the hate of communists made the US see him as a national enemy. After all those operations in Cuba - Bay of pigs, etc, and the embargo, who can blame Cuba for anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 the problem is: we dont need cuba. If cuba wants our goods...they need to be willing to bend.North Korea is far more of an enemy than Cuba is to the US, and we even give stuff to NK provided they at least BEND. Cuba is too stubborn, therefore, they dont want our stuff. If they really wanted our stuff, then they would meet at least some of our requirements. But if they dont, well...no stuff. We are not the world's babysitters. We dont need to cater to everyone's whiny demand. Cuba should be thankful...they are one of the few nations on earth that have practically ZERO US influence. No US "imperialism"...no US enterprises, no US businesses...no US "invaders"...they are FREE FROM USA! So why are they whining...and constantly fleeing TO the US? ::) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordos45 Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Platt Ammendment! When we "liberated" Cuba we forced it upon them. It allows the United States to interfere in Cuban internal affairs.I doubt its still in effect though. After all, if it still was we never would have had that little "Bay of Pigs" incident...yeah...usually when you try to overthrow a legal government its a good idea to succeed!And yes, the US is responsible for any bad US/Cuban relations. Now if we lifted the embargo...we could probably make a lot of money off Cuba, have the idiots in Washington ever thought of that? (Now, notice that when Bush did the axis of terror speech, he listed Iran, Iraq, and North Korea. He never mentioned Cuba...despite its being Communist. Although by that same token, he never mentioned Communist China or Communist Vietnam either. But almost all stuff in US is made in China so you can't call them evil.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilVirus Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 US could not and would not oppose China for many reasons, including its nuclear and military power and its productivity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acriku Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 If the US took on China, we would have to depend on air to surface capabilities, and navy power. Ground troops wouldn't stand a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dude_Doc Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 But China is now moving away from communism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acriku Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Mmmm...China is integrated into communism deeply, so it might take a while to get rid of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dude_Doc Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Yes... but if the people one day won't follow the communist agenda and ideal, there won't be any communism in China anymore. So basically, it is the people who decide. But well, if it works and everyone is happy, fine, it's not anything that concerns me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acriku Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 But think about it, the rules and policies are built around communism, you would have to change just about everything conscerning the government, and that can go pretty badly. But if the people are in agreement with it, it should theoretically go smoothly *hopes* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemafakei Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Hehe. You know that there's a millionire Thatcherite in the upper echelons of China? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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