Correction to ACElethal's Pathfinding Comments and Further Pathfinding Comments

[Navaros]

I woulda said this in the other thread but it was closed.

ACE, you are wrong when you say the harvesters *always* go to the closest spice field. I can say with 100% certainty that this is *not* the case. ken had an idea before that there can only be 3 harvies per spice field or something; i don't know think that is actually the *only* determining factor in where the harvies go, but there is something to the idea that there will only be a certain small number of harvies per spice field before they start going to all sorts of whacky and game-ruining places against the Player's will. I can prove this if you like. We will test it on WOL if you insist. There is no possible way that harvies always go to the closest spice field. That is just a common pathfinding behaviour, but often in games when where inability to control harvesting, as IG intended with 1.09m unfairly determines the Winner, the harvesting will NOT go to the closest spice field.

To BEST thing any patch could possibly do for Emperor is to make Refinery Waypoints actually WORK. They are *supposed* to allow you 100% control over where your harverstors harvest, and if that feature actually worked, Emperor would be 100 000 times more fair and playable than it is now. I would literally almost NEVER lose if that were the case (other than to 2 or 3 specific individuals).

Almost *every* loss I ever get is simply due to the fundamental tragic flaw of Emperor: the lack of working Refinery Waypoints. If WW would ever do anything to Emperor, *this* is what needs to be done.

[VigilVirus]

What I usually do about this (usually because the harvies go to the field where the enemy keeps his units, lol), is just select all the harvies and send them to another field. They then will continue going to the field I sent them too.

[Navaros]

is just select all the harvies and send them to another field. They then will continue going to the field I sent them too.

again, you state it incorrectly my friend. *sometimes* they might continue going to the new field, but more often than not they will only go to the new field for one pickup, and then they'll be right back where they started (enemy spice). test it out and you will see this for yourself.

[ethan]

the harvesters path finding of which spice field to go to is random. sometimes, they go to the same one until it is used up, or back and forth

usually its the first, but not always.

also, the 3 per field is not right i believe. one time i had about 10 harvesters going to the same field.

[Apollyon]

Sometimes I think the harvesters go to the enemy's spicefield just to irritate me.

[ethan]

Sometimes I think the harvesters go to the enemy's spicefield just to irritate me.

yes, they also do that too to add the extra frustration level to the game.... :- or just simulate the stupid people you find in every race ;D

[rogue1896]

Sometimes I think the harvesters go to the enemy's spicefield just to irritate me.

and remember that one time a while ago where that one fremen went around the rock formation and got killed by snipers? that was just to piss you off too. it's a conspiracy apollo. any day now we're all gonna be ambushed by sardukar and be killed horribly. Take out your Progressive Knife...ok...that was lame...

[SurlyPIG]

Some things never change...

The harvesters will always go to the spice field closest to the parent refinery. If you plan your base properly, you will see this IS true. You have to make it obvious which field is closer. I purposely build my refs as close as possible to the edge of my base. Furthermore, I rotate the refinery so it faces the nearest spice field. This is both a method of controlling where the harvs go and a way of increasing harvesting efficiency because they have less distance to travel, less air time etc.

[Navaros]

ACE, you are 100% wrong on this particular matter. I propose that we scientifically test your false theory on WOL and when you are proven wrong, you come back here and say so.

What you say is true to a *certain extent* but nowhere close to 100% of the time. and on top of that, there is *NO WAY* to build Refs "closest" to the Spice you want on most of the maps ie: Arged Desert

[SurlyPIG]

As far as I know the only time the "closest spice effect" doesn't apply is when the map is souverely bugged. The harvester volume affects it sometimes, such as on Arged Desert, but on some it doesn't, such as cradle basin.

[Navaros]

We may disagree on a few semantics, but:

I am sure all the truly skilled players will agree that the lack of working Refinery Waypoints is a tragedy for Emperor. It makes the game grossly and fundamentally unfair, especially for ATR - because in the early game Hark or Ordos can just box in AA troopers with Dusties/Saws on rock formations surrounding the ATR's spice field (esp. in QM on 4 player maps). ATR has *NO* solution to this. Bikes will be owned by Dusties/Saws and so will ANYTHING else including Fremen/Sards. The ATR loses his entire economy because he can not control his harvesting as the developer wanted the Player to be able to do via Refinery Waypoints. All the Ordos or Hark has to do is put a few early-game units at one spot on the map and the ATR is *DONE* with no possible recourse.

Moral: fix Refinery Waypoints so they actually *WORK*. That "patch" alone would improve Emperor gameplay and make it more fair by 10 million percent.

If Westwood/EA would ever patch just one thing, which of course they won't, that is *THE* thing to have patched.

You'd *think* they would fix Ref Waypoints seeing as it's false advertising that they do not; because the 1.09 README states that Refinery Waypoints are a feature of the game - but in reality they are not.

[GhostHunter]

This is why people spam your threads, the threads that are already spam Nav.

Its because you waste all of our time making a thread trying to mainly prove someone wrong for your own benefit, if anyone cared about this topic they would of started it awhile ago along wih many variations of it.

So my friend, you bring it upon yourself that people spam you, its not OUR fault, why its your very own :).

[Navaros]

Atreides Legend please stop spamming my threads with nonsense. thx.

[SurlyPIG]

OK, so the waypoints don't work. Big deal. You don't need them to manage your spice well enough.

There will *NEVER* be another emperor patch. Ever. You'll just have to adapt to the few imperfections there are. Enough of this incessant whining.

[ethan]

Atreides Legend please stop spamming my threads with nonsense. thx.

i dont think we're spamming by stating things. i dont know why you think posting is spamming, but, i guess everyone has their low points.

[Navaros]

you make it sound like it's not a problem ACE. it's a HUGE, game-ruining problem.

of course, *you* don't care because you're always busy rushing the heck out of anybody before they can muster any sort of decent attack against you, so *your* harvesting could be anywhere and you wouldn't give a crap 'cause your enemy would be so muddled up by your *incessant* (oh look i used one of your fave words to describe how you play Emp :) ) attacks against them that they couldn't even begin to think about attacking you without forfeiting the game by making a kamikaze run at you with too few units. either way, you win and your harvesting remains competely irrelevant to you because of your demi-god-like status

pardon me, but i'm not a demi-god-like Emp player and very few are. normal elite ATR players still need to have a large number of units to mount a surefire successful attack against Hark or Ordos and to that end, the ability to control harvesting is fundamentally essential to the very core of Emperor gameplay.

honestly I am shocked that you would say i am "whining" about the harvesting bugs because surely you are experienced enough to see the problems this unfairly causes for non demi-god-like players who are still elite players and lose to under-skilled players simply because they can not control the harvesting as WW intended due to documented bugs that were fully-intended to be fixed by Westwood. i think you should retract your remark there because you have let your dislike of me allow you to make a completely silly statement that minimizes your credibility as an Emperor veteran with it's blatant unfoundability

[rogue1896]

[sarcasm]i agree totally nav. that is unfair. if this bug only affects you then that's totally unfair. i've never seem to have had this problem at all so i guess it only affects you which would make it very unfair. i feel your pain.[/sarcasm]

[SurlyPIG]

How can you say it doesn't effect me? Of course it does. I don't always rush you know. But I just live with it. You say it doesn't work but have you EVER tried building your refs as close as possible to the spice (facing outward). And I'm not talking about "well this spice is two microns closer it should go there". Over-do it. If you have to build the refinery at its maximum range away from your base, with a lone wind trap in the middle, do it. It will work fine.

OK, you have a point - the refinery way points rarely work. But it's easy to get around, and unless you plan on doing something about it, this whining doesn't help. I mean, really, how many times have you posted this? You practically blame all your losses on this.

[GhostHunter]

Yes I agree with Ace, placing the refinerys closest to the spice field works, and point them towards a SAFE spice field, thats why you dont put pre-built on... And Nav really, do quit complaining about bugs, and btw your far from ANY class of elite that doesnt involve "WHINNING NEWB" in the front of it...

[atrd3m0n]

Oh man and I thought we finally got rid of this sob... :(

[Navaros]

ACE, as i already said, you *CAN NOT* put your Refs facing your "closest" spice on most maps. There simply isn't enough rock space. On top of that, that is NOT EVEN CLOSE to an 100% (maybe 55%...) solution to the problem. How can you expect even the best ATR player to win on Arged Desert or To Nimila etc. where no matter WHERE he puts his Refs, the harvesting will still be impossile for the ATR to reasonably defend before Hark and Ordos can easily get there and massacre the ATR economy before the ATR can even get any of the proper units around the rock formations to defend.. As a result of the harvesting bugs, *MOST* maps in Emp are unfair. Yes I do blame my losses on the harvesting pathfinding bugs because other than to guys like you ACE (and by guys like you, that means literally you and two or three other individuals at most), they are the ***ONLY*** thing that ever makes me lose and if the harvesting bugs were corrected then I could even put up a much more decent fight against you.

This does not just apply to me, but to ALL elite ATR players. Like it or not, I am one of the top 5 ATR players in the world (I realize that's not saying much seeing as hardly anyone plays Emp these days, but even so, the fact remains); I say that to let those who don't know understand that my perspective on this matter is completely qualified and those who can't understand what I am saying don't understand simply because they don't have as deep an understanding of Emp gameplay as I do. ATR is hit the hardest by these bugs because the other Houses can move so much faster and control the map before ATR can get there.

rogue1986 and Ateides Legend, again i'll ask you to please stop spamming my threads. i realize that many people are too inept at Emperor gameplay to realize just how much of a problem these bugs are. those people should start sepearate threads about their ineptness rather than articulate that ineptness in this thread.

I make this thread because someone asked in another thread what should be done to patch Emperor if WW/EA ever would do anything. I realize that they won't. However I still had to make my opinion on the issue known in case they ever do, and to answer the people who wanted to know about the problems with specific detail. My opinion is more qualified than anyone's who's posted on this board lately except for ACE and elite47 because I am better at Emp and have far, far more experience in QM (read: *real* Emp gameplay) than any of the others.

[Anathema]

This thread is pointless. There will never be a patch to solve any of the existing problems, because why would they? The community has shrunk to a spec of what it used to be anyway.

And don't spill any tears about it either. Sheesh, this game is old. Move on if you hate it that much.

[rogue1896]

rogue1986 and Ateides Legend, again i'll ask you to please stop spamming my threads. i realize that many people are too inept at Emperor gameplay to realize just how much of a problem these bugs are. those people should start sepearate threads about their ineptness rather than articulate that ineptness in this thread.

well if you really are a 'genius' then i guess you should have realized that i didn't spam your thread. and i would never do anything so rude to the other people of this forum like you have by starting spam threads like this, as you have suggested. my post was saying 'It does not only happen to you so quit bitching and put up with it.'

[Taqwa11]

Yes, Nav, your refinery waypoint argument has a lot of merit. However, if the only people you ever lose to are "demi-gods" like Ace (LOL), it wouldn't make any difference to you personally if the bug were fixed. They would still beat you because they have great build order and micromanagement, they play this game much more often than most of us, and they will always be one step or more ahead of those who are merely moderately skilled.

About To Nimila: that map is an Atreides map. I absolutely love it, and I find that most Hark or Ordos players don't like it. Air drones rule on that map, and anything coming to your base by land from the opposite side of the map has just very narrow corridors to come through. Minos perched on those cliffs are invulnerable to everything but inkvines. As Atreides, you only have one relatively small opening to defend, and your initial spice is right outside your front door with plenty of infantry rock patches by it. Anyway, that's my view on your statement regarding To Nimila.

One question: What name(s) do you play by on custom settings? I'd like to play you sometime, but I never see you online. I usually play as either Taqwa11 or Slitherz. My custom record against you is about 4 for me and 1 for you, but it's been a long time and I don't play as often as you, so I assume you have probably surpassed me. If you're as good as you say you are, you'd have nothing to worry about on either QM or regular custom game default settings. Let me know.

Oh, one more thing: Now that Gob gave you an undeserved umpteenth chance, don't blow it. I often find your posts interesting, but you always end up blowing things. Keep it cool. ::)

[emprworm]

i have never had a problem with my harvesters spicing in a spice field after I tell them to move. I direct a harvester to move to another spice field and it does....for the rest of the game.