homosexuality and where it stands morally

[SurlyPIG]

Do you want to live in a world with no discrimination? I surely wouldn't. Because if there is no discrimination, there is no way to tell the difference between one person and the rest. The uniqueness of humans will forever be lost.

Do you know the difference between discrimination and diversity? It seems to me you don't know what discrimination is. Discrimination is to make a difference in treatment or favor on based on prejudice or bias. And there are laws against it. They aren't effective, but at least they exist. To make everyone the same is assimilation. To make sure nobody is mistreated because of their differences is the prevention of discrimination. Does that clear it up for you? I never said a thing about forbidding difference among people, lol. That would be ludacris.

you cannot encourage illegal activity on PUBLIC airwaves. (radio and television are subject to decency laws as well). you CAN write a book.

Then that book should never be held in public libraries or stores (where they exist).

if you are the KKK and you want to publish an add that says "Join the KKK today!" THIS **** SHOULD **** be allowed in the newspaper!!!!!!!!!

Of course, but do you really think they'll be that inclusive? If the add were to say "Whites only, join the KKK today!" then it shouldn't be run because it discriminates against other races.

its not the goverments job to dictate morality. such a position for any government to take is unacceptable.

All governments do! It's called law. And frankly, almost all would agree that forbidding violence is a good law.

highly despicable, yes. Of that there is no doubt. yet its not your place or the governments place to decide what opinions and thoughts a parent feeds to their kids. you will end up with something much much worse in the end once you start doing that.

I KNOW! I never said that! I was saying, this is the downside to free speech/individual control, but it is FAR better than the alternative.

All discrimination of any people based on trivial distinction should be completely forbidden.

your terms are muddy here. having an opinion or writing a book about how people with brown hair are inferior is not discrimination. Illegal Discrimination is not giving someone a job, an education, etc. based upon prejudices. That is illegal already and should be.

Thats what I said. Discrimination based on anything other than individual merit should be forbidden (and it isn't - I can give you tonnes of examples of it even in western society).

[emprworm]

Of course, but do you really think they'll be that inclusive? If the add were to say "Whites only, join the KKK today!" then it shouldn't be run because it discriminates against other races.

not true, Ace. Any private organization can have whatever requirements they want. "Join the girlscouts today. Girls only age 8-18."

Cmon Ace. Get with it.

You want to censor every club and organization simply because of weakminded bipedal anthropods get all oooey gooey offended?

Im so sick of all these intolerant people dictating what people can and cant say. They want to shove their values down my throats. They want society to be a bunch of clones of themselves. They want a society that is just one massive gray congolmerate of clones. I dont know what kind of intolerance Canada is spewing, really hope that the US doesn't descend to the point where someone cant set requirements to join a private club and put it in a newspaper. If I want to make a club called "Internet Junkies Against NetScape. Requirements: you have a Microsoft Certification and surf the net 10 hours a week and are over 18 years old." Someone dont like that? Is he 17 years old and love Netscape? Well...TOOO BAAD. He can Start his own dang club then but keep his grubby paws off mine.

[VigilVirus]

Ace, look up discrimination in the dictionary - it means the same as diversity. We're just used to it never being said except in cases of bad things, but all it means is diversity.

Lol, if there is no discrimination, there is no difference, because these words are synonyms. Better make yourself clearer next time.

[emprworm]

goodness I hope society doesn't become a mass of liberal minded clones.

[VigilVirus]

goodness I hope society doesn't become a mass of liberal minded clones.

Lol, that would be much worse than any discrimination you can think of.

[emprworm]

yea it would. you know i can think of ALL KINDS of race based clubs:

National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP).

Maybe theres a Nunavuit club in canada. I can think of all kinds of potential race based clubs:

How about this: "Association of Cherokee Native Americans"

Or: "The Bear Lake Club. REsidents who live on the shores of Bear Lake only"

Or: "Fellowship of Australian Aboriginees. Natively born aboriginees only."

I am really baffled why all these westernized white liberals here in North America think its their right to silence the rest of the world simply because, in their whiteness, they cant impose themselves upon everyone elses group.

WHAT? YOU WONT LET ME THE WHITEY IN YOUR GROUP? GUARDS!!!

PRISON!! CAPITAL PUNISHMENT!!

[SurlyPIG]

not true, Ace. Any private organization can have whatever requirements they want. "Join the girlscouts today. Girls only age 8-18."

Cmon Ace. Get with it.

Please! The purpose of the girl scouts is to build discipline, teach girls new skills, have fun, and teach them to be women. The girl scouts don't teach you "how to drag a ni***** behind your truck." The purpose of the KKK is to discriminate blacks (and other minorities). What if a coloured person wanted to join the KKK to discriminate against other people of colour? And don't say it would never happen, because it's bound to. Hilter wanted to return Europe to a race of blond-haired, blue-eyed people, and he hated Jews. Yet his grandmother was jewish and he was dark-haired and dark-eyed.

Age is a commonly accepted form of discrimination. The girl guides look for 8-18-year-old girls to join because they want the members to be able to relate to each other. A 10-year-old girl might not necessarily be able to relate to a 60-year-old man. However, a 30-year-old white person is able to relate to a 30-year-old black person. Differences in development are overpronounced when it comes to age. That's why adults of this generation often have such difficulty relating to kids of this generation.

And FYI, there's even a double standard with scouts/guides. Any boy or girl can join scouts as a member, and any man or woman can join as a leader. But only girs can join guides as members and only women can join guides as leaders.

You want to censor every club and organization simply because of weakminded bipedal anthropods get all oooey gooey offended?

No newspaper would run an add for the KKK looking for white recruits because there'd be big protest and people would buycott. Look, if it were some group about white rights that tries to eliminate double-standards, I honestly don't think anybody would care. There was a time when it was nearly impossible for a white male to get into medical school, no matter what his credentials. But clans like the KKK are carriers, and executors, of hate, discrimination, violence, and murder.

Im so sick of weak of all these intolerant people dictating what people can and cant say. They want a society that is just one massive gray congolmerate of clones. I dont know what kind of intolerance Canada is spewing, really hope that the US doesn't descend to the point where someone cant set requirements to join a private club and put it in a newspaper.

You think it's about being weak-minded? It's about PROTECTING the "weak". It's about protecting the rights of minorities from the prejudiced majority. It's about It's about preventing women from being payed fractions of men for doing the same job. It's about protecting someone with a foreign accent from car rental companies that never seem to have "enough cars", if you no what I mean. It's about protecing a black man in Idaho from a group of skinheads trying to increase their numbers large enough to kill him and his family.

And BTW, Canada is the nation of tolerance and acceptance. All colors, all nations, all religions, all cultures, and all ages are diversely accepted; NOT assimilated. But, like all civilized nations, violence, and the advocation of violence, is condemned.

[SurlyPIG]

Ace, look up discrimination in the dictionary - it means the same as diversity. We're just used to it never being said except in cases of bad things, but all it means is diversity.

Lol, if there is no discrimination, there is no difference, because these words are synonyms. Better make yourself clearer next time.

NO. They're not. As defined by Merriam-Webster;

discrimination - to make a difference in treatment or favor on a basis other than individual merit <discriminate in favor of your friends> <discriminate against a certain nationality>

diverse - differing from one another : UNLIKE

[SurlyPIG]

yea it would. you know i can think of ALL KINDS of race based clubs:

National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP).

Maybe theres a Nunavuit club in canada. I can think of all kinds of potential race based clubs:

How about this: "Association of Cherokee Native Americans"

Or: "The Bear Lake Club. REsidents who live on the shores of Bear Lake only"

Or: "Fellowship of Australian Aboriginees. Natively born aboriginees only."

I am really baffled why all these westernized white liberals here in North America think its their right to silence the rest of the world simply because, in their whiteness, they cant impose themselves upon everyone elses group.

WHAT? YOU WONT LET ME THE WHITEY IN YOUR GROUP? GUARDS!!!

PRISON!! CAPITAL PUNISHMENT!!

All of your examples are non-violent with productive goals. The KKK is NOT. Violence and discrimination is all they know and care about. You keep saying the same things, giving irrelevant and ridiculas examples (how could you even compare scouts to the KKK?) and I keep clarifying myself. Can you, after these half-dozen large posts, seriously not understand my point ???

[VigilVirus]

How hypocritical, by saying "violence and discrimination is all they care about" you are in fact discriminating against them. You can't assume anything about a group of people without it being discrimination as you say.

Now, how can you say discrimination should be forbidden if you just used it yourself?

[Dante]

Ahh, this thread seems to have got pleasantly off-topic...

[emprworm]

once again, ace, you want a thought police. Your argument constantly switches sides.

On one hand you use "discrimination" as your justification for banning these groups. When I demonstrate to you that its perfectly acceptable for a group to discriminate (girlscouts, NAACP, Cherokee, etc), you then switch your justification again and go back to the "well they are thinking violent things!"

SO which is it Ace? What is the actual thrust behind your argument? If you argure censorship based on discrimination you will lose. You cant say "Groups cannot discriminate, but yet ILL DISCRIMINATE WHICH GROUPS can discriminate." LOL! You use discrimination to discriminate against groups that discriminate yet allowing other groups that discriminate. A horrible mess you are in.

so you fall back to your other argument of policing thought.

is that really what you want a government to do? you think it is the governments place to determine right and wrong?

there are white people in the US that want the US to send the blacks back to Africa.

There are BLACK People in the US that want the US to fund them going back to Africa.

Which group gets to speak?

I say both

You say neither (if you are consistent. If you are illogical, then you will discriminate and allow the blacks to speak, but forbid the whites)

[The_Sadukar]

Today's society was last centuries influented by very bizzare mix of philosophies. Rosseau, Voltaire, Nietzsche, Kinsey... These people eliminated word "sin" from our minds, all morale barriers in our souls. To make the world good again, we must return to morale way. This world isn't only - and we are responsible for our acts.

interesting, but tell me my dear mr Ivik who introduced the word "sin"?

[Anathema]

Sane arguments, Emprworm, but I can tell you that in the Netherlands (where racist statements are punishable by law) we have a generally tolerant climate towards minorities and I am happy about that.

Keep in mind that the imam wasn't convicted for his discriminative statements (in public) because of the right of free speech.

[emprworm]

im not sure what you mean earthnuker by racist statements are punishable by law. they are here too. its called harrassment. and it doesn't have to be racial. they are directed at individuals.

if you are to mean that the more generalized statement "i believe brown eyeed people are inferior" is punishable by law, then that does not bode too well for your laws.

[Anathema]

Eeeh...brown eyed people are hardly a seperate race. I don't know the exact formulation of the law against discrimination but I can tell you that you won't be prosecuted for saying blond hair is ugly or that you despise brown eyes.

Stating publicly "homosexuals are lower then pigs" is punishable.

[VigilVirus]

Hey, I have brown eyes >:(. Kill the blue-eyed people! Oops, what are you doing? Don't arrest me, it's just my opinion. Help!

;D

[SurlyPIG]

How hypocritical, by saying "violence and discrimination is all they care about" you are in fact discriminating against them. You can't assume anything about a group of people without it being discrimination as you say.

Now, how can you say discrimination should be forbidden if you just used it yourself?

Have you said something that made sense this entire topic. Me saying that the KKK use violence and discrimination is a PREJUDICE. DISCRIMINATION is the abnormal treatment of an individual BASED ON a prejudice. I discriminate no one. Like all human beings, I have prejudices, but I do not let them cloud my judgement. You know you were wrong about diversity and you don't have a leg to stand on. Clearly you don't understand this at all. If you don't even know the words you use do not post them!

SO which is it Ace? What is the actual thrust behind your argument? If you argure censorship based on discrimination you will lose. You cant say "Groups cannot discriminate, but yet ILL DISCRIMINATE WHICH GROUPS can discriminate." LOL! You use discrimination to discriminate against groups that discriminate yet allowing other groups that discriminate. A horrible mess you are in.

Like VV I'm not sure you completely understand the meaning behind what I say. Exclusion is different than discrimination.

exclusion - the act or an instance of the prevention or restriction of a group or individual from participation or consideration of any activity, group, or society This is what the girlscouts and NCAAP practice.

discrimination - the act of excluding an individual or group from an activity or organization based on a prejudice, or anyting other than individual merit. This is what the KKK do.

prejudice - an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledgeWe all have them. Like I said, one of mine is that KKK members are bigots.

The reason the girl scouts take only 8-18 year olds or whatever age is so that developing children have a positive place to go to be among those like them. Despite myself, I'd have to say that age is often a part of personal merit. Sex can be, and in the case of scouts/guides, it is. BUT - no exclusion should be allowed in the workplace, when providing services, in the eyes of judges, etc. Private exclusion, on the whole, isn't great, but it's ok.

If a person, ANY PERSON, is committed to the issue, they should be allowed to join the NAACP. Just like how people of all clours can join black rights support groups. History has proven that you don't need to be a member of a culture to care about the well-being of that culture. A good example would be the abolishionists in your country leading up to the civil war.

The KKK forbids non-white members because of their prejudice that they are inferior, worthless, not human, unholy, etc. THAT should be forbidden. They are trying to remove the rights of non-whites, and though they will thankfully never be successful, they practice it on their own.

there are white people in the US that want the US to send the blacks back to Africa.

There are BLACK People in the US that want the US to fund them going back to Africa.

Which group gets to speak?

Neither, because they are trying to take away the human right of mobility of black people. It is an individual choice whether or not someone migrates anywhere. It is a right enforced by both your government and the UN. Forced relocation is illegal.

[VigilVirus]

I was not wrong about discrimination:

Discrimination:

1. The act of distinguishing, or noting and marking differences.

Don't say that I don't make sense just because you can't understand my logic. If anything that says something about you.

Discrimination comes from prejudice and you can't have one without the other. You are looking at the narrow term of discrimination, not understanding that the word basically means (above).

You can't keep any group of people from expressing their views - that is wrong whatever the views might be. You are not the judge of that nor you can be.

[DukeLeto]

goodness I hope society doesn't become a mass of liberal minded clones.

So "liberals" are bad, eh? Well, since you so enjoy looking things up:

lib

[emprworm]

Stating publicly "homosexuals are lower then pigs" is punishable.

if that is so, and stating publicly that brown eyed people are inferior is NOT punishable, then your government is nothing more than an irrational hypocritcial mass of bigots granting special rights to a group of people and discriminating against everyone else. When you DISCRIMINATE as to what DISCRIMINATING statements are allowed and what aren't, then you are no better than the discriminating pigs that you are fighting to stop discriminating against.

To ACE:

liberalism is bad, in my opinion. It seeks to strip people of individual rights while attempting to create a non-distinguishable society composed of moral human clones. It is a repugnant political philosophy. You are more imposing than you realize. You want to strap someone down in a chair, and shove your big phat political views down their throat and you dont think twice about it. The irony is that you cannot even see how intolerant you are. You embrace that the tyrranny of the majority silence the opinions and voices of the minority based upon your own personal moral code that you think the government should impose on everyone.

Private exclusion, on the whole, isn't great, but it's ok.

oh so now you are supporting that private exclusion is oK? WHich is it ACE because you constantly seem to argue back and forth.

If a person, ANY PERSON, is committed to the issue, they should be allowed to join the NAACP.

is the NAACP taking public money? If they are, then yes. ARe they fully self funded? If not, then just who do you think you are thinking that every group in the world has to bow to your whiteness and let you and your white skin in their group? Just who do you think you are demanding that everyone bend their knees to your morality? If you dont like that a private group isn't letting you in....START YOUR OWN GROUP and quit being such a baby like whiner. MENSA society is a group of geniouses. Unless you have an IQ of 150, you cant join. If someone doesn't like it...TOUGH. THIS IS the kind of thing that makes DIVERSITY and RICHNESS in society. A bunch of intolerant bigoted liberals who want to cram their morality down everyones throat because their poor little fragile feelings are hurt should NOT dictate societal law. Awww....poor little 145 IQ white liberal cant get into MENSA. Poor thing. Look at poor little liberal whine about discrimination. Look at poor little white liberal complain to the lawyers. Look at poor little white liberal think that somehow, his whiteness should be forced into any group he wants, any time he wants.

I sure hope the US doesn't fall into such a quagrmire of intolerant bigotry.

The KKK forbids non-white members because of their prejudice that they are inferior, worthless, not human, unholy, etc. THAT should be forbidden

more thought policing. So now, when a group discriminates, you ask "why?" So you now eliminate objective law and replace it with subjective morality.

THOUGHT POLICE: "Why are you refusing to let in this white skinned liberal?"

Private Club: "Uhhh...because a great voice from within the comet said 'only let in tanned skinned conservatives."

THOUGHT POLICE: "Hmmm....OK, I GUESS that is acceptable. But I'm warning you, if any of the homosexuals complain, your going to be shut down."

Private Club: "Well, they cant join either."

THOUGHT POLICE: "THEY CANT? AND WHY IS THAT?"

Private Club: "Because they are sickening to us."

THOUGHT POLICE: "GUARDS! ARREST THESE BIGOTS! EXECUTION! KILL THEM ALL. NO TRIALS. EXECUTE THEM HERE AND NOW!!!"

lol

There is no logic at all in a government that discriminates against groups that discriminate simply based upon 'reasons why'. Now you are allowing some discrimination, and forbidding others, making that government a discriminating hypocritical bigoted government with no logical standard and forcing its moral views down its citizens throats. You have allowed a bunch of whining homosexuals to dictate your government morality and cause it to impose its morality down all canadians throats. This is a most unfortunate situation. And here is how immensely bigoted it is: if the webservers that contain this post are physically located in Canada, for you to be consistent in your argument, you would like to see either this entire website shutdown or have all my posts and my account deleted because of my statements against homosexuals above (that they are a community of baby-like whiners who want to force their views down everyones throat). That is a discriminating statement I just made, and you should want to see it forcibly deleted from these servers. That is just how tolerant your views are, Ace.

[VigilVirus]

Lol, nice script, emprworm :)

[DukeLeto]

To ACE:

liberalism is bad, in my opinion. It seeks to strip people of individual rights while attempting to create a non-distinguishable society composed of moral human clones. It is a repugnant political philosophy. You are more imposing than you realize. You want to strap someone down in a chair, and shove your big phat political views down their throat and you dont think twice about it. The irony is that you cannot even see how intolerant you are. You embrace that the tyrranny of the majority silence the opinions and voices of the minority based upon your own personal moral code that you think the government should impose on everyone.

But that's not liberalism... ::)

[SurlyPIG]

I was not wrong about discrimination:

Discrimination:

1. The act of distinguishing, or noting and marking differences.

Were you born yesterday??? There's multiple meanings for the word discrimination. Are you too self-absorbed to look BELOW the definition you posted. LOL. I am talking about SOCIAL DISCRIMINATION. Not DIFFERENTIATING DISCRIMINATION. There's a huge difference, and you obviously know this but your trying to piss me off or something. Well, it's not going to work. Look at MY definition of discrimination. THAT is the discrimination I'm talking about. I'm talking about "Sam discriminates Zach." not "I can discriminate between red and blue." Once again you've made it ridiculasly obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.

Don't say that I don't make sense just because you can't understand my logic. If anything that says something about you.

IT MAKES NO SENSE BECAUSE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THING. You're totally OT.

You can't keep any group of people from expressing their views - that is wrong whatever the views might be. You are not the judge of that nor you can be.

In that case I will "express my view" that people with your level of arrogance and incompetance have no right to live.

Obviously I do not believe that but it goes to show you what people will say if you allow them to say anything. Publicly forbidding the advocating of violince is what any civilized country should do. Notice how I use the term CIVILIZED. Heh, maybe you should look that up in the dictionary too - but make sure you get ther RIGHT meaning this time.

EMPRWORM,

I'm tired of you misquoting me and I seriously doubt you actually read my post. I'm going to spell it out for you, AGAIN, with the important things in all caps just so you can see what I'm actually talking about. I have NOT contradicted myself because:

DISCRIMINATION is DIFFERENT than EXCLUSION.

DISCRIMINATION is BASED ON PREJUDICE.

EXCLUSION is NOT BASED ON PREJUDICE. EXCLUSION is done with an UNPREJUDICED OBJECTIVE in mind.

In the case of the girl scouts, the unprejudiced objective is that they want girls to have a place where they can go just to be amongst themselves.

And please, don't even comment on liberalism or Canada because you clearly don't know much about either. I never even mentioned either of them.

"The irony is that you cannot even see how intolerant you are."

Well EXCUUUUUUUUUSE ME for not tolerating violence and discrimination. Shame on me for not reckognizing that everyone has a right to beat, murder, and discriminate those different them, or at least discriminate against them.

"Just who do you think you are demanding that everyone bend their knees to your morality? If you dont like that a private group isn't letting you in....START YOUR OWN GROUP and quit being such a baby like whiner."

Ok then, why don't I just start a car insurance company that charges more for different races that cause more accidents. I'm sure I can find statistics on them somewhere JUST enough to avoid a class-action suit. Might as well throw in some nationalities too, after all, the British drive on the left side of the road. Hey I know - immigrants probably can't drive as well lets find some statistics on their driving records and charge them triple!

According to you this would be ok. I mean, nobody HAS to buy insurance from me. ::)

Exactly what laws support your anarchistic suggestions, emprworm? What I'm saying is backed by HUMAN RIGHTS. What you're suggesting would allow employers to pay employees differently based on their own stupid prejudice. I mean, after all, a woman earning 1/2 that of a man doesn't HAVE to work for you at all, does she? I mean, what does she care what a 90%-water bipedal being pays her? Hey, as long as it's a PRIVATE company it's okay right? ::)

[Andrew]

wow can we all say FLAME? this is the best flame topic i have ever seen. other than politics.

OT - as long as gay people dont try to come onto me or do anything publicly in front of me i dont care.