homosexuality and where it stands morally

[Apollyon]

i think Id probably agree with you, empr but unfortunately children will always be emotionally influenced in schools.

oh and off topic check the thread you made in dune editing and play the game as I suggested (if you havnt already).

[DukeLeto]

teach kids reading, math and science- keep all that social CRAP out of it. kids will learn as they grow up in society and form their views through parental discipline.

Exactly. At some point, parents should get involved in their children's lives. The public school system isn't daycare.

[emprworm]

Exactly. At some point, parents should get involved in their children's lives. The public school system isn't daycare.

ahhhaha! so nice to see me and the Duke finally agree on something.

woot!

;D

[DukeLeto]

Don't expect it to become a reagular thing. ;D

[TMA_1]

just a warning to you all, keep on topic. Right now all opinions are accepted. Just try not to straight out offend somebody. I have had people post against this thread, but i have seen no direct offenses. If so than point them out to me by IM. keep it up but no breaking rules. Just being careful :)

[emprworm]

Don't expect it to become a reagular thing.

oh no. i have much appreciation for something i wont take for granted.

8)

[VigilVirus]

Many influences in public schools are very bad ones, be it drugs, alcohol, stealing or whatever, I think that someone should really do something about it. Even with the strict school rules, it doesn't seem that these influences were stopped.

[emprworm]

No, I do not. Our judges aren't as repugnant and corrupt as yours.

According to you, Adolf Hitler had every right to state his opinion. And that's the danger.

lol! look at all that faith you have in people with absolute power.

eeekss. no thanks. i trust no human being with power like that.

yes, hitler has every right to state his opinion. Mein Kampf should not be banned, and is a fully allowable written work that freedom should protect. he had no right to harm anyone, however.

[VigilVirus]

No, I do not. Our judges aren't as repugnant and corrupt as yours.

According to you, Adolf Hitler had every right to state his opinion. And that's the danger.

lol! look at all that faith you have in people with absolute power.

eeekss. no thanks. i trust no human being with power like that.

yes, hitler has every right to state his opinion. Mein Kampf should not be banned, and is a fully allowable written work that freedom should protect. he had no right to harm anyone, however.

I agree. How can you forbid one person to express his opinion just because you don't agree with it? As long as it is not an action directly hurting someone (physically, not emotionally), it has to be allowed or else the whole system would be hypocritical.

[emprworm]

wow, what is going on? first duke leeto and me agree and now vigilvirus.

is this really me? am I not "emprworm" the guy that stirs up debate?

woah.

[TMA_1]

make sure you dont over do the argument empr.lol you might pull off one of my famous attacks. hehehe me and you are a lot alike... scary for you.lol :)

[VigilVirus]

wow, what is going on? first duke leeto and me agree and now vigilvirus.

is this really me? am I not "emprworm" the guy that stirs up debate?

woah.

Hehe, amazing isn't it? ;D

[emprworm]

bah i always overdo the argument.

i have the largest PER CAPITA posts of anyone in this forum i bet. Cant prove it but I'm sure of it.

this means that on average, even though i dont have the most posts, if you tallied up my "words per post", i would annihilate the competition.

i'd honestly like to see that stat, but alas it is not provided

[Inoculator9]

Homosexuality isn't a religion, at most it is a philosophy. Teaching about religion is fine, but telling people about different sexual preferences is very inappropriate. Now it has been said here that sex within marraige is ok, then why don't we let homosexuals get married? That would certainly solve some problems.

now the fact that a thread like this was started shows that to some of you homosexuality is just something that happens to other people, not possibly someone you know here.

[Acriku]

Schools should not teach any religion at all whatsoever. End of the little story called "Separation of Church And State."

They should not teach about homosexual activities, as has nothing to add, what are we going to learn from what homosexuals do in bed? This I agree with you Inoc.

We don't let homosexuals marry because homophobes passed laws against it. But if you really want to marry the same sex, just take a trip to Virginia I believe. If you are outside of the country, take a vacation to somewhere where you can. It isn't impossible to get married.

I don't think homosexuals should have rights separate of that of heterosexuals. I see all of these homosexuals marching to be recognized so they can get separate rights. It's stupid. Homosexuals are included in the affirmative action, and that is stupid as well. If I worked hard all of my life to build a great store, I wouldn't want to be forced to hire a homosexual. I could be forced to hire a flaming homosexual who is disgustingly gay (not just effeminate but overwhelmingly gay) and lose a lot of customers who are uncomfortable around him and be forced to close. It is stupid!

[zamboe]

Schools should not teach any religion at all whatsoever. End of the little story called "Separation of Church And State."

I think that depends on each country situation.

Let me elaborate.

In US there is not a dominant religion, like in my country for example (89 % catholics), but since a few years ago, because of a liberal goverment there is no teaching of religion in state and provintial schools. But in private schools, those under the umbrella of the catholic church the education stills the same as always, which in my opinion is good because people can choose, the bad side is that those schools are not free (there is a monthly fee) and some families with a limited budget cannot afford it, even if they wanted to provide a catholic education.

[Acriku]

Ok, end of the story in the US :)

[TMA_1]

right on joe on everything. well they should not teach evolution in school. That should be taught that in a college area, where you willingly pay for it. Neither creation or evolution theories should be teached in public schools. Its because they are theories and arent proven

[SurlyPIG]

My view on homosexuality: if it makes that person happier, so be it. I'll welcome it. I'd rather know openly gay bob from accounting who enjoys evening walks with his boyfriend stan, than know gay-but-acting-straight steve from marketing who was divorced because he didn't love his wife, now his kids don't have a father, his work suffers, he's fired, etc, etc, etc. Do whatever makes you happy, as long as does not harm others.

Thats my view on religion too. If believing in God or Allah makes you happy, great! Go to church, worship your supreme being, and if it makes you happy, all the better. If you're a better person because of it, great! Should you be allowed to fire gay bob from accounting because you think he's a sinner sent from the devil? NO. Absolutely not. Your views are causing suffering among others, and that is completely unacceptable. Should you be able to speak out against him, say he's a pig, a scoundril, a rat, a societal misfit? NO. You're harming him, and others like him, and that is unacceptable.

People, people, people, freedom of speech vs protection of minorities from the freedom of speech of opressive majorities while not allowing autocratic opinions to be widely forced, is a big name, but a simple concept. I can't believe nobody has really said it yet. Only good ol' Nema has touched on it.

First, outline your core values. In this case, freedom: The ability to say or do virtually anything you want to.

Your speech and your actions cannot and should not be opressed unless you are going against the principle that gave you that freedom of speech.

For example, you use your freedom of speech to voice your opposition to homosexuality, and your opinion that it should be outlawed and not taught or spoken of. Emprworm has been doing this.

BUT WAIT: that goes agains this: freedom; The ability to say or do virtually anything you want to.

Emprworm, you, and many others like you, are trying to take away the freedom that is given to all individuals to practice and to preach virtually whatever they want to, wherever they want to. Since you, by definition, are contradicting freedom, then using freedom of speech laws as a recourse is completely illogical.

I won a rather large in-class debate with this principle a few months ago. It was a case study of human rights issues. Mr. Smith wanted to place an add in a local newspaper searching for white people to join the KKK. Mr. Jones, the paper owner, would not allow it because it opposed his beliefs. Mr. Smith said that this is a violation of his Human Rights because he is being opressed and excluded because of his beliefs and his affiliations. But, in my opinion, Mr. Jones is in the right because Mr. Smith was going AGAINST the principles of Human Rights, so he should not be able to use the UDHR as a means to protect his interests.

IMO, religion has no place in law. Homosexuality, contraception, and un-wedded polygomy should be legal everwhere. As should heterosexuality, monogomy, and unprotected sex.

Emprworm, once again you contradict yourself because you say that homosexuality should not be taught, but mein kamph should. To a small degree, I agree that some subjects are too sensitive for the classroom and should remain outside, but on the whole, I largely think that outlook is a waste. Social is my favorite core class because of the real-world things we discuss every day. There are very few teachers who would selectively teach their students their beliefs, and there are all kinds of rules that forbid teaching a personal bias. And don't say that religion isn't in schools, because it is. I've seen religion all over my schools, and the schools in America are far worse in this matter. Don't get me wrong, though - I think that info about any religion should be taught. But some fanatical Christians think that books written by homosexuals should be kept out of classrooms, and that information and articles on homosexuality and contraception should be kept out of school libraries, classrooms, and computers.

If it seems like I'm picking on Christians, I'm not...besides Wicca, Christianity is one of the least opressive religions in the world. Other places have it far worse.

If and when I have kids, I would never dream of sending them to a religous school (as in a private school that teaches with a single religious bias). Emprworm, what if one of you kids is homosexual by genetics? Would you rather him learn about the possibility, and persue a safe homosexual lifestyle, or would you rather him live thinking he was going to hell because of his thoughts, never marry and be alone all his life, or worse still, marry, divorce because of his homosexuality, possibly with kids in the mess?

Of course, I wouldn't dream of telling you what to do with your family and your children. As you have said it's your life and nobody's business.

But this is why I would never choose a religion for any children I may have. I believe such a thing is deeply personal, and should be completely the choice of the individual to choose their life, their religion, their career, and their lifestyle. Anything less seems a little too dictatorial to me.

And BTW, I think I'd be a pretty big contendor for that post-size per capita stat. ;)

[SurlyPIG]

TMA, you're absolutely right! They're both theories, but they are both widespread. This is why they should be outlined with an unbiased perspective. A good deal of my core beliefs have been shaped by this unbiased perspective I've recieved in school. They don't go into any depth at all, in fact I remember my grade 6 teacher simply put a sheet on an overhead with two cololums; Evolution, and creaton. Listed were simply points that briefly outlined each. No bull, no padding, no bias. A lot of my faith in public education was restored that day...

Acriku, it doesn't matter where you go to get married, a lot of places simply will not reckognize a same-sex marraige. Like my country. Lots of gay couples have a ceremony and get married in front of their friends and family, but the state just doesn't acknowledge it as a legal marraige, thus they are technically not married.

[emprworm]

Ace, you cannot be more wrong.

First, outline your core values. In this case, freedom: The ability to say or do virtually anything you want to.

i dont believe this. this is not my core value. You cannot DO anything you want to. You cannot SAY anything you want to. I cannot threaten your life. I cannot follow you around and harrass you. I CAN have any opinion I want. If freedom doesn't allow for that, then you uphold the principles of slavery and oppression.

Your speech and your actions cannot and should not be opressed unless you are going against the principle that gave you that freedom of speech.

there is no "principle" that gives me my freedom of speech. freedom is a principle in and of itself. How can this prinicple be given by another principle? What principle, exactly gave me the principle of freedom?

For example, you use your freedom of speech to voice your opposition to homosexuality, and your opinion that it should be outlawed and not taught or spoken of. Emprworm has been doing this.

as you voice your opposition to religion, fundamental christians, americans, etc. Any nation that outlaws an opinion is a nation of oppression, intolerance, bigotry and slavery.

BUT WAIT: that goes agains this: freedom; The ability to say or do virtually anything you want to.

it does not. I already said that freedom does not grant you the right to follow someone around and harrass him. It DOES grant you the right to compose a book expressing your views. If someone chooses to READ that book, that is their problem. If you read my post and get offended, well too bad. No one forced you to read it. If a person STILL wants me arrested after he choses to pursue ME and read what I have to say, it only exposes his narrow minded intolerant bigotry.

Emprworm, you, and many others like you, are trying to take away the freedom that is given to all individuals to practice and to preach virtually whatever they want to

how so? YOu are the one that seems to have the desire to criminalize someone's opinion. You put a man in jail for saying "I believe homosexuality is sinful", then you yourself can be tossed in jail for saying "I believe Christian religion is narrow minded and obsolete"

Works both ways, unless of course, you are bigoted. In this case, its ok to critically remark on a religious person, but unacceptable for a religious person to critically remark on you. This is a frail minded person who is too weak to withstand a different opinion.

Emprworm, once again you contradict yourself because you say that homosexuality should not be taught, but mein kamph should.

i vehemently deny this. nowhere did I make this statement. For a self-proclaimed skilled debator you do a very poor job representing someone else's statements- especially when all you have to do is scroll up.

Let me re-iterate then what I said:

I did not condone TEACHING ANY form of political opinion or morality in school. INCLUDING homosexuality, religion and personal conviction. School is not the place for that. I WOULD UTTERLY OPPOSE teaching Mein Kampf in school. You cannot be more wrong, and I am deeply disturbed you would so wickedly corrupt my words into making it sound like I advocate teaching children the evil hatred of Adolf Hitler. That makes me sick and I am personally offended at your intolerant blatant and repugnant remark. If you want to make me an enemy, you will do it REALLY QUICK by spewing crap like that.

THe irony is that despite the BS slander you just accused me of, I STILL respect your right to your opinion. I would STILL fight for your right to express it- as repulsive as it might be. I am not that weak that I think you should be silenced.

Now to clarify:

I said Mein Kampf should be protected by freedom. Any man should have the right to publish his opinion, no matter what it is. If you are an atheist and you think Christianity is a plauge or an "opiate of the masses", then YOU HAVE THE PROTECTED RIGHT to express that opinion- you can write a book, you can make a website.

THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS TEACHING IT IN SCHOOL HOW DARE YOU SAY I ADVOCATE PROMOTING THE THIRD REICH IN SCHOOL

ok, i'm going to calm down now, but that really made me upset.

Of course, I wouldn't dream of telling you what to do with your family and your children.

are you sure?

if you want my children to be forced to listen to a teacher tell them that homosexuality is "good" then actually you DO want to tell my children what to do.

If you want to criminalize someone for having the opinion that Islam is evil, then you DO want to tell them what to think and do.

If you want to criminalize someone for having the opinion that homosexual acts are sinful, then you DO want to tell them what to think and do.

If you want to criminalize someone for having the opinion that fundamental Christianity is irrational, then you DO want to tell them what to think and do.

all human beings MUST have the freedom to have ANY MORAL VIEW they want. WHO ARE YOU to dictate moral beliefs? You are no one to dictate moral beliefs. That newspaper was wrong. They are dictating morality. They are taking their moral views and shoving them down people's throats. YOur criteria seems like "if it offends, then it should not be allowed"

Well THAT VIEW ALSO OFFENDS. Therefore, that view should not be allowed. Homosexuality offends. Therefore it should not be allowed. See the horrible logic here? Being offended is subjective. ANything you say will most likely offend SOMEONE.

a government that bans you from expressing an opinion simply because some narrowminded bigoted intolerant cry baby whines and moans only makes that government an intolerant slave state.

Just IMHO....(should it be illegal?)

Thank God i dont have to think I might go to jail for posting my opinion. Ooooh someone might get "offended" by my post...ooooohhhhhhhhh ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh oooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh...THE UNIVERSE IS GOING TO IMPLODE NOOOOOOO!!! I OFFENDED someone. OOOH NOOOOOO

DEATH PENALTY! CAPITAL PUNISHMENT

good grief.

[Acriku]

Empr, that word "implode" offends my fat friends. Spread 'em.

[emprworm]

lol!! thanks acriku. i went to get a hot dog and I was just incensed. I loathe the third reich with intense, unbelievable passion. It is hard to personally offend me, but that crap from Ace managed to do it.

thanks for the humor.

;D

[zamboe]

Christianity is one of the least opressive religions in the world.

True Christianity gets you a REAL freedom, a freedom that goes beyond any comprehension, it liberates the human spirit. The word opressive itself has nothing to do with Christianity.

Do not generalize when it comes to Christianity.

[SurlyPIG]

Uhhh...you managed to completely misinterpret a good deal of what I said...

When I said freedom allows an individual to do virtually anything they want to, I tried to put emphasis on the virtually part...and on the individual part. Total freedom is, of course, anarchy, which is a terrible concept, IMO.

When did I say that opinions should be controlled by the government? Perhaps my examples confused you, but I'm not referring to a couple of guys talking or a book or a TV show, I'm talking about things like the KKK, which feature such lessons as "How to drag a nigg** behind your car." You seem to think there is some massive border between preaching hate and practicing hate, which there is not. Your thoughts become your words, your words become your habbits, and your habbits become your values. If you preach it, you will practice it. Should the KKK be allowed to hold sessions on how to cause a violent death of suffering to black men? NO. That's what I'm referring to.

If someone were to take a newspaper add in your contry that said "Do good. Kill a Jew today.", someone would go to court over it and, if they actually managed to get it in the paper, it would most certainly be ordered by a judge to be removed. This is a good thing...this is what I'm referring to.

"as you voice your opposition to religion, fundamental christians, americans, etc. Any nation that outlaws an opinion is a nation of oppression, intolerance, bigotry and slavery."

*sigh*

Opposition to religion? Christianity? Americans? Maybe SOME aspects of SOME of the things they do, but I have never voiced total opposition or total hatred at all. You're twisting my words. Even if I DID voice total opposition, that would still be ok. If I were to say that killing them is good or something like that, then that would be the kind of thing that should be controlled.

BTW, your freedom of speech is acknowledged by your laws because you are an American citizen and by the UN because you are a human. Were someone with those automatic rights to say something like "Send them nig***s back to the cotton fields", then it'd be much different.

"how so? YOu are the one that seems to have the desire to criminalize someone's opinion. You put a man in jail for saying "I believe homosexuality is sinful", then you yourself can be tossed in jail for saying "I believe Christian religion is narrow minded and obsolete"

First, I never said that. Second, I never said anybody should be jailed for something they said no matter how horrible it is. Remember the example of Mr. Smith of the KKK and Mr. Jones of the local newspaper? That's more what I meant.

" If a person STILL wants me arrested after he choses to pursue ME and read what I have to say, it only exposes his narrow minded intolerant bigotry."

What if you wrote something worse than mein kamph? Opposition to real narrow minded intolerant bigotry is not narrow minded intolerant bigotry, it's a freedom of speech. Hating Jews because they are Jews is an abuse of freedom of speech. Opposing those who abuse freedom of speech is not an abuse of freedom of speech...Like you've said, the line is hard to draw, but at least there can't be hate crimes spread abroad, as there have been in your country.

"Works both ways, unless of course, you are bigoted. In this case, its ok to critically remark on a religious person, but unacceptable for a religious person to critically remark on you. This is a frail minded person who is too weak to withstand a different opinion."

The thing is, I did not make a critical remark on the person or the religion. I made a critical remark on the few individuals who think that homosexuals should be outlawed, and that contraception manufacturers and abortion doctors should be killed.

An opinion is different from hate. An opinion would be, "I think homosexuality is un-natural." Hate would be "Homosexuals shouldn't have the right to live."

"i vehemently deny this. nowhere did I make this statement. For a self-proclaimed skilled debator you do a very poor job representing someone else's statements- especially when all you have to do is scroll up."

WHOOPS! I'm sorry, I didn't mean to write that. In scrolling back and forth between all the pages while typing, I left it incomplete and I didn't think to check what I type...

What I meant to say was:

Emprworm, once again you contradict yourself because you say that homosexuality should not be taught (in schools), but mein kamph should be allowed to be freely distributed and read.

Sorry for that confusion. I was trying to say that public schools are institutions for the public, and selectively choosing which ideas to educate and which ideas not to would be wrong. It doesn't mean you have to TEACH it (for lack of a stronger word), just acknowledge it. In my social class we learned about mein kamph as part of WWII history, but we neither read it nor discussed it's principles. We simply learned that Hitler wrote it in prison and that it was full of Nazi ideas, mostly anti-Judaism. I'm not saying you should go into huge depths about the history of homosexuality, but acknowledging its existance and teaching people not too beat gays (happened in my own school) can't be all that bad.

I won't elaborate any further or respond to that last bit because that seemed to strike too hard with you...Oh well, I always thought I was on your good side.

Again, I apologise for my mistake...I had 4 windows going and I added that paragraph in, went to check back what you said and probably got caught up in something else that was posted.

Again, my bad...I don't like to think I'm anyone's enemy.