How is the Church doing?

[TMA_1]

When I said "Church" I mean every believer alive. I am not talkign about denominations because they were made up by mankind to build a powerstructure that shouldnt exist (See the early church and read early church fathers for that). I mean how is the live of christians changed in the past two thousand years? What are the problems involved? what have humans done to taint the truth? Anybody can post, and even bash christianity. It would be silly and fruitless though. Not to mention show immaturity. What do you guys think? looking for construc tive ideas.

[Guest Eric E.]

That early church of yours was a separatist clandestine organisation in its time to begin with.

If it is that universal, where was it 5000 years ago ?.

[TMA_1]

after the Great Flood and the linguistic dispersion, people contianed the truth for a while but lost it through seperation. You can see truths in many religions. the Trinity is important in many, the idea of one great being that created all including the "gods and goddess'", the world wide flood myth. So many of them.

Eric, you sound like what Nero said about the christians. He also said they were cannabels among many other things. They werent secret, they were protective because they were, during the reign of certain roman emperors, slaughtered and martyred for their beliefs. The funny thing is it spread like wildfire. It reached places like india and china as soon as 300 A.D. It also reached africa around 60 A.D. and up in europe in the early hundreds A.D. The secretism was a myth that they were an "evil" cult. They spread the word and gave the gospel openly. That is why they had to protect themselves. because they would be killed if they were seen giving that gospel.

[Guest Eric E.]

I hope you are willing to cope with a non-believer.

I believe in the existence of religion, because it is in many people's minds. However, i do not believe it's fairy tales.

So trinities and gospels are non issues for me.

From a scientific point of view, the success of christianity was a result of roman suppression and cynism. Romans were fed up with that themselves but had no concept of getting rid of their own cruelty. They were captured in their own success. They were more capable and savvy than anyone else in the world, neglecting the need for a better life for broad suffering masses. The concept of mercy was an escape for that, so in time they embraced that.

Now, two thousand years later, we in the "christian" west are the new Romans, interested in keeping op our edge over the poor majority in the world. Today, Islam offers a "new" concept for the poor. Don't you see? That is how it really works.

Regards,

Eric E.

[emprworm]

That early church of yours was a separatist clandestine organisation in its time to begin with.

If it is that universal, where was it 5000 years ago ?.

i would think that any imperial law that punishes a man for belief with death could be considered "clandestine" by hatemongers who also want to impose belief upon people.

However, since I am of the persuasion that all men and women should have the freedom to believe whatever they want, I therefore also condemn any such derogatory labels as calling early Christians in the Roman empire as "clandestine" just as I would calling Jews during the Third Reich as "clandestine". Such a comment seems to imply that unjust persecution and wanton death simply due to beliefs is given hearty approval, and that would be a repugant position to take.

all IHMO of course :)

[Guest Eric E.]

Early Christians were clandestine because they behaved like that.

And for good reason they were.

There is no moral category attached to this view from my side. I merely refer to the facts.

[emprworm]

ok, i can accept that.

[DjCiD]

Interesting topic TMA... allow me to insert another question. What will happen when the church is removed from Earth? What I refer too is the Rapture. If all of the church is removed, including children and the unborn... How would the world cope with such a great disaperance? What if after the rapture no more children can be born... kinda looks like cloning is the only answer then. :- What will the world be like with the Church gone?

[Guest Eric E.]

Djcid, This made-up question is besides any rational discussion.

What happened when the roman apollo temple vanished?

The romans turned into Italians and are more numerous than ever before. That was serious religion too!!

They just switched to another religion.

This happens all the time in history.

Because religion really is about focussed mass power, which i personally consider the main evil of mankind.

There is a nice italian word for focussed mass power: fascismo

[Acriku]

Why will no one be able to have children anymore? But if that somehow beyond all imagination happens, cloning would probably be the answer to saving our race.

[emprworm]

Because religion really is about focussed mass power, which i personally consider the main evil of mankind

atheism has killed more people in the 20th century than the christian religion killed in its entire 2000 year history. so i dispute your claim. And before you cite the over-exhausted "crusades" strawman, ask yourself: "what are the actual numbers of people killed in the Crusades, which lasted for 200 years?"

Then take a look at atheist China under Mao Ze Dong in mere piddly 30 years with his "Great Leap Forward" and do a little math. Then come back here and tell me about the evils of man.

[TMA_1]

good point Dj cid. Dont attack dj for the question. It is strictly a spiritual matter that he is speaking. Not imperical. The church in my opinion is goingdown hill. Revelations has a prophesy that the last church before the rapture will be currupt and "tepid" as the bible calls it. The denominations are growing tired and evil. I hope too l ike many others that the master comes soon.

[Acriku]

Empr I have lost a lot of respect for you with that last post. The deaths were not under athiesm, and The GreatLeapForward is not under athiesm. I'm surprised you have the gall to say that against athiesm.

[emprworm]

Empr I have lost a lot of respect for you with that last post. The deaths were not under athiesm, and The GreatLeapForward is not under athiesm. I'm surprised you have the gall to say that against athiesm.

lol, fine Acriku-, but i dont think you know much about the history of religious persecution in China and promotioin of Atheism. Marx taught that God is a product of human invention. This philosophy was encouraged by Mao- whos enitre government were atheists. Here is a little history quote for you:

"In the 1950s, Mao Zedong sought to control religion through government-controlled religious groups and the total suppression of uncooperative religious leaders through brutal labor camp terms, murder or exile. In the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s and 1970s, Mao closed all places of worship and tried to extinguish religion altogether. Since Mao's death in 1976, the government has tolerated some religious expression, but only within government-registered organizations. The constitution, in Article 36, guarantees freedom of religious belief but elsewhere it sets forth sweeping exceptions and qualifications to the right and states that it only protects religious activities that are "normal," without defining the term. "

My accusation against Mao is a correct one. Murder that occurs under a government that promotes and encourages atheism while seeking to eradicate religious freedom is accurately described as 'under atheism'- no matter how uncomfortable that might be to you.

Christians, Muslims, HIndu's, Sikhs, Animists- all differing religions have committed grievious evil. And so have the non-religious. Welcome to the club, Aikriku. As much as you want to think atheism has a spotless record, such is far far from the truth.

As much as you like to think that atheism is so high and moral, it is wrought with just as much corruption, violence, hatred, and murder as any religion ever. You dont hesitate to cite the Crusades as a battering ram against Christianity, so be prepared for the chickens to come home to roost when we examine atheistic rulers and what they have done as well. Less people died in the Crusades over 200 year span than a minor skirmish in the 20th century. You make it out to be this big example of evil, yet it is practically nothing. Isamlic conquerers invaded Europe. Now, I have no problem with them defending themselves. I DO have a problem when Atheist countries persecute and forbid the free practice of religion.

But cmon, admit it Aikriku, the thought of eradicating Christianity is appealing to you somewhere in the depths of your soul is it not? If you search your heart deep down, is it wrong for me to say that idea of vaporizing that entire religion of Christianity is an attracive notion? Well under Mao Ze Dong, it was carried out- attempted to anyway. Even today in China, religious people are persecuted. I suggest you research it a bit.

China STILL does not have freedom of religion.

And if I lost your respect, well, I can't do much about it. Honestly, I never figured you respected me anyway. I speak what I know about historical fact. And it is a historical fact that Mao Ze Dong killed more people than Stalin. It is a historical fact that his government was not only atheistic, but actively sought to eradicate all organized religion.

And look at the effects.

THEREFORE THE RATIONAL CONCLUSION IS:

the atheist accusation that religion is to blame for the worlds evil is without merit. I actually lose respect for people when they make such bigoted statements like that. Basically what you are saying is:

"Us high and mighty Atheists- we are so much better than all you religious hatemongers. You cause the worlds problems but WE are so moral. If you could all just be like us, there would be no more hate in the world."

LOL, how can I respect a view like that?

[VigilVirus]

There is some truth in that. Religion is what separates us. It does even more so than nationality. Just think of Middle East for example. It is all because of religion that for decades, blood is spilled and as time goes on, the conflict does not get resolved because you cannot resolve a conflict of faiths. It just grows stronger and stronger, threatening to consume the sanity of makind.

[Acriku]

Empr, this not an argument you are making! This is ad hominem attack after ad hominem attack, you have a lot of knowledge on arguments, so use it man! That man does not represent athiesm and you know that! Jesus are you that dense at this moment? Let's see your example, it is one man who tries to eradicate religion, and uses the government to do this. This is not at all under athiesm! It is his own beliefs, and probably horrible childhood that has caused this hatred! Go to any psychoanalyst today and you will find that it is not his athiest beliefs that made him do it, it was something in his past or his environment around him that has caused this hatred. And another thing, you represent one man as athiesm and who commits such atrocities under athiesm, yet you disagree with others who say that thousands upon millions who represent their religion commit atrocities do this under their religion! Please! Do you realize that your arguments in this thread are nothing more than hyprocrisy overblown!?!

[Anathema]

Defensive crusades? I'll look up on this, but the crusade against the muslims in spain wasn't just military conquest but also genocide.

In the soviet union the people quickly resorted to atheism because they had been supressed by the state church before the russian revolution.

[emprworm]

TO AKRIKU-

C'mon, sir. Get real here.

The only reason why more crime is committed by religious people is because only about 2% of the world's population is Atheist. Proportionately speaking, the atrocities are equal accross nonreligious and religious.

YOu want ad-hominem attacks ? Here let me enlighten you on the intellectual atheist position of the worlds top atheists (these are not unknown thugs but all famous, published, recognized atheists):

FRANK ZINDLER - atheistic scientist - prominent speaker, published author at www.americanatheists.org

Religion is like the human appendix: although it was functional in our distant ancestors, it is of no use today. Just as the appendix today is a focus of physical disease, so too religion today is a focus of social disease. Although religion was a force accelerating human evolution during the Ice Ages, it is now an atavism of negative value.

Religion still promotes tribal divisions, even though we must recognize that all "tribes" must henceforth work together for a common cause or all shall surely perish together. No single tribe will survive unless all tribes survive. The divisions created by religions must be eliminated.

The disappearance of religion will be as great a tragedy as the disappearance of smallpox. We will all survive its passing without difficulty and without tears. (Frank Zindler; Religion, Hypnosis, and Music: An Evolutionary Perspective; The Probing Mind, October, 1984)

(Frank Zindler, Why Is Religiosity So Hard To Cure?; 25th National Convention of American Atheists, April 2, 1999)

How many quotes do you want Aikriku until it becomes plain as day that Atheism would LOVE...aboslutely ADORE the idea of ELIMINATING religion. If given the power and the opportunity to eradicate Christianity- I'd say probably most of the worlds atheists would jump on that chance and do it. Atheist China did this. Why? Because they COULD. Atheists HATE religion. Or do you want more quotes from famous atheists?

Published Atheist Author Farrell Till: chief editor of Skeptics magazine (atheistic magazine):

(30 July, 1999 quoted dialoge between Farrell Till and a Christian man) when you read this, note how Till demonstrates patience and intellectual, unbiased emotion-free argument to make an appeal to reason and rational thought for the xian to realize the truth of atheism:

ERIC: For me to lose my faith in Jesus, I would have to deny that I exist. He is -that- prevalent within me. But again, it is possible that you haven't been called by God's drawing, compelling Holy Spirit yet...or you have been called, but chose to rebel...

TILL: Oh, please, spare us the bull$!&*. You don't know a damned thing about these matters. You have been duped with a lot of theological crap that is completely unverifiable and untestable, and you obviously don't know $%it from Shinola about logic or you wouldn't make idiotic statements about "knowing" matters that involve complete theological speculation that cannot be verified or tested.

Farrell Till

Skepticism, Inc.

Or how about this:

Richard Dawkins

"I do think the Roman Catholic religion is a disease of the mind which has a particular epidemiology similar to that of a virus... Religion is a terrific meme. That's right. But that doesn't make it true and I care about what's true. Smallpox virus is a terrfic virus. It does its job magnificently well. That doesn't mean that it's a good thing. It doesn't mean that I don't want to see it stamped out." -Richard Dawkins, Professor at Oxford University, Skeptic vol 3, no 4, 1995

STAMPED OUT, AIKRIKU! HE WANTS RELIGION STAMPED OUT!

and this is a professor at Oxford!!!!!!!!!!!

wow, another Atheist scholar promoting genocide. No surprise there. This time in Europe no less!

Thank God people like this dont have power. Unfortunately one did in China. His name was Mao ZeDong and he killed more than 50 million people. Like this professor at Oxford, he too wanted to see religion Stamped Out. It is people like that who really truly scare me- just as much as the Islamic Jihad Fundamentalists. These so-called "professors" whos hatred of religion runs deeper than the Mariana Trench - if ever given power - would eliminate it as fast as Hitler tried to eliminate the Jews. Have you ever read Mein Kampf? I have read several chapters once in a research project. The language in that books is identical to the language of these atheistic professors I'm quoting. The only difference is that these atheist professors have no power. THANK GOD FOR THAT

But wait! There's more:

Article entitled "How to Eradicate Religion" by Newton Joseph, PhD. at www.atheistfellowship.com

Or how about this:

Religion disarmingly avers that human brains are too puny to achieve full comprehension. Yet science is progressively advancing toward complete knowledge, leaving religions bobbing about in its wake. Science is hard work, but the answers it hews from the rock face of ignorance are reliable. Religion is armchair speculation well fitted to adipose brains. (Peter Atkins, Professor of Chemistry at Oxford, Awesome Vs. Adipose, Free Inquiry Magazine, Vol 18, No.2 1998)

More bashing, more ad-hominem, more superiority complex....more promotion of ERADICATION of religion. You expect me to believe your little moral story about how all those cute little atheists are so innocent and so loving towards religious people? You expect me to believe...even for a SECOND...based upon quotes like that...if those people were given POWER that they would not immediately ELIMINATE religion? OF COURSE THEY WOULD

And that is what Atheist China did. ANd given more power, the 2% of the worlds atheists would love nothing more than to see religion (specifically Christianity) eradicated in their lifetime. I have given you the PROOF to back this up. I did not quote extremists, Adriku. I quoted SCHOLARS yet their quotes are as repugnant as Mein Kampf. Same hatred, different belief system.

Atheism despises religion, and many atheists seek to eliminate it. Given power like Mao Ze Dong, this hatred of religion and desire to see it "go away" turned in to brutal force. That you are so quick to point out the brutailty of religious people and so blind at the sheer hatred of religion that so many atheists have truly amazes me.

Do you even know anything about atheists? have you ever interracted with another atheist? You are going to tell me here and now in front of all the peopel in this forum that the majority of atheists respect Christianity? Get real. They hate it. Some of them probably stay awake at night rolling around in their sheets they hate it so bad.

And please dont try to tell me again that atheists have such "benign" views. Or are you going to force me to give you some more quotes? Dont even make me start quoting the lay people. They are much angrier and much more hateful. Ever hear of a Xian Dead Pool? Yea, they are on the internet. Run by atheists, they place bets as to which public 'xian' (christian) will be the next to die. And they celebrate with each death. There are web pages celebrating the death of Mother Theresa made by atheists that are just all smiles. PLEASE dont make me link to them. Maybe YOU aren't hostile towards religion, but DONT speak for all atheists because many of them ARE.

[Anathema]

Atheist cults, that's what they are.

And I'd say more then 2 % of the population is atheist ::).

[VigilVirus]

Heh, you forgot one good one, empr:

Karl Marx:

"Religion is the opium of the masses"

[emprworm]

vigil, i wanted quotes of atheists who are alive today.

i didnt want to hear adriku tell me "well those were the old atheist ideas"

[Caid Ivik]

Atheism makes people empty. And that empty space will be always filled by something. Primarily evil. See Hitler. He turned from God to ancient germanic myths. Result? Holocaust. Even one of his great inspirators, Nietzsche, named godless person "most ugly" (And Zarathustra said... IV).

Other big fault of atheism was marxism. Marx "cleaned" his theories from christian core humanity and what was the result? Nearly same as Hitler's. Rule of one party brought a parody of utopistic socialism, what was de facto oligarchy.

Of course, atheism have some good influence too. More times I am exposed to it's thinkings, I'm more hardened in my believe.

[emprworm]

well my only point is that im sick of hearing the repetitive atheist remark "religion is the cause of all the evil" yada yada, when I look at atheist SCHOLARS (forget the laypeople here- yet they are even worse)-- even these professors at Oxford publicly quoting that they want to see religion "stamped out", "eliminated", "eradicated", etc. This is akin to Hitler in its extremism. Give one of these people power, and they will see that it happens. 50 billion people died as the result of just one of these maniacal atheists who hate religion yet received power.

There is no doubt- not even for a moment - that if atheists ruled the world, they would directly attempt to eradicate religion- particularly Christianity. My quotes above prove this.

i can get plenty more too!

;D

[The_Sadukar]

why should we go for christinas particularly?

and hitler wasn't an atherist, he had his own strange religion.

[emprworm]

I think its most accurate to call hitler a skeptic. Not an atheist, yet not a theist. he really had no theistic religion, only a distorted philosophical view. but those are different things. he did not worship any deity (that I am aware of) especially the Judeo-Christian God. Yet I dont declare him to be an atheist. I quoted Mao ZeDong who killed 5 times as many people as Hitler and was an atheist.