America

[DukeLeto]

We must always strife to better ourselves. The fact that elsewhere the conditions are worse is no excuse.

I don't disagree with that, but you must admit that America is closer (not close, but closer) than most countries to total freedom. Though Germany is quite nice...

[Edric O]

I don't think so... Because Total Freedom is anarchy.

[emprworm]

The US system may be called democracy, but it remains that the power is in the hands of the monied.

I will agree with this partially. The people of the US, especially the working class, have an incredible amount of power in their hands. The problem is that they DONT USE IT! >:( It amazes me...just AMAZES ME how utterly repugnant people are sometimes in this nation. They have the freedom to VOTE and think FOR THEMSELVES who they want to vote for. But what happens when elections roll around? Only 50% of them vote. LIterally millions upon millions of people DO NOT VOTE because they are either too lazy or dont care. Many people in other nations would be willing to fight with their lives for that kind of freedom. How sad it is when people do not vote. So what is the result of all these lazy working class people that dont vote? The powerful, the rich...THEY vote. THEY make advertisements. THEY do campaigns. THEY are out there pushing their agenda's. The power is there for the lower class. A tremendous amount. In fact, the more the lower class increases, the greater their power increases. They are just too lazy to rise up. However, I do think they will be doing just that this next election cycle. For once in a couple decades, the US will see the choices of the lower class rise to power while the upper class gets the back seat. Because all those lazy people that didnt vote last time are fed up with the economy and the world, so I think they will be voting now.

Theres 2 things in my country I truly despise. 1) The rich and powerful people who try to squash alternative energy source exploration (keeping us reliant on oil which I cannot stand. Its time that humanity rises above oil, the cause for too many world problems)

2) Big tobacco companies

i hate both of those with a passion. when the US gets rid of those things, then im gonna have a big party. everyone is invited.

[The_Sadukar]

Muad'dib, protect us, it's another one!!!!!

[Edric O]

You are absolutely right, Emprworm. This time I agree with you 100%.

But the lower classes will never rise up like that, IMO, because they are manipulated by big companies (with huge budgets for advertising)... :(

[nemafakei]

Emprworm, I agree totally.

The system is, however, so infiltrated by the like of the businesses you mentioned, that, as edric says, there will be problems removing them. Influence outside of the US itself might be needed.

"I can just imagine nema with a dictonary by his computer"

I didn't used to, until I came to Fed2k, when I realised I needed direct quotes. Mind you, I can't find any root of dorky.

[Acriku]

Nice point Empr. Is 50% including everyone or just legally allowed citizens?

ACE I do not agree with TMA and have never shown that I did, nor implied it. Stop putting words in my mouth, err hand.

[nampigai]

yes I must agree too but that's capitalism for you, and it exist in the entire western world.

[emprworm]

the lower class may be indeed manipulated, as Edric says, but that is not the fault of the upper class. That is their fault for being gullible. Every single person in this nation has the freedom to think independently. If they are going to be stupid enough to blindly follow every whim of some slick politician wearing a nice suit behind a podium on their television (millions of people addicted to tv with their shallow minds), then whos fault is that? What you choose to pledge your allegiance to is no one fault other than your own. There are always people running for office in every town, city, and state, that are reformers or have elements that are more representative of the working class. Yes, there ARE people in this nation running for offices that hate big oil. Rich people try to manipulate through the media, but they cannot enslave. If you are going to be guillible and believe everything some hypocritical rich guy says on CNN, then that is to your own discredit. Maybe one day, in their poverty, some of these lazy, non-voting manipulated people will wake up and realize how stupid they were and blinded and might start excercising their power for a change. Maybe some of them may realize that part of the very REASON they are in poverty state is because of their gullibility, laziness, apathy, and life-long addiction to television. Many people in this world are in poverty but are completely helpless to do anything about it. People in the US who are in poverty (not all but most) are that way because they are lazy and apathetic.

The poor people in this nation or any capitalist democracy may indeed be poor. They may be gullible and manipulated. They may be lazy. They may even be oppressed (though I would be careful using this term). But they are not weak.

[TMA_1]

there we go. This is what I wanted to start. Good conversation. I agree totally emprworm. I think though that it isnt because the big business' manipulate the lower end people like me and many others. If you talk with people you will see they really dont care. like you said before. They make their own agendas and hide it in the freedom that they cannot vote. Well they can do that but look at what the people have done to this country? evil doesnt come from the outside but the inside. We cant change this country by making and enforcing laws. It takes each individual to change this country. Idoubt it will happen but it has to. I hope it does.

[nemafakei]

Politics in both the US and UK is stagnating. There is little real difference between each of our two main parties. We have a thirs party, the Liberal Democrats, who are too small to make a difference, and they only focus on the idea that the other parties are worse, rather than suggesting something radical and new.

You see, the people are, in effect, weak, because they have no real choice.

[TMA_1]

very true nema, but if the people had a choice would they choose the right thing?

[nemafakei]

Depends on how well they were informed. That's why no-one's been able to do anything - in the US especially, the rich control the media (Long live BBC!) and so little sympathy is given to anyone who is reformist. Moreover, pseudo-democracies of today have fortified themselves so well, that they can easily condemn any sense that threatens to reform as unpatriotic, undemocratic, or whatever, and the populace will follow the existing system.

[Razorox]

The title of this thread might aswell be "flamewar" ::) lol

[TMA_1]

it started conversation didnt it?

[nemafakei]

I thought flame wars were whenre people launched insults and similar devices at each other, not conversation, as TMA states.

[Repoman]

I think america would be a great country to live in as well but i think Australia is better and so do the polls rating Sydney as the best place in the world to live so ner ;D

Got that little bit of immaturity out of me now :P

[Edric O]

Yes, Nema, you are right. He who controls the media, controls the mind. Even if there were some enlightened people who wanted to change things, like Emprworm says, they would never be able to get the support of the rest of the population, because the general population is too gullible and easily influenced by the media...

[Acriku]

All you need to do is talk with your local news group and ask for a story, then show them all your blahblahs and then they will most likely give you a few minutes, or have an anchor speak your words. But if it is propaganda like "Boohoo America is a huge bully" they wouldn't put it on because who would put an anti-American statement on an American show?

[TMA_1]

he who controls the media controls the minds of the mindless. That should be more like it. I dont trust the media. I live in america and I have to agree. Its freaking bias!! Dont trust the world system. trust individuals.